Tape 02 Bud Freeman 7-27-1986
[Speaker 1] (0:00)
How are you today?
[Interviewer] (0:04)
Do you ever remember a cheese factory? Do you remember a brick factory?
[Bud Freeman] (0:14)
Well, they run a—Joe Evoy run a concrete factory.
[Interviewer] (0:18)
Joe Evoy?
[Bud Freeman] (0:19)
Sure. Him and, uh—he had the—Jeffrey, he's got a Jeffrey's working.
[Interviewer] (0:26)
What Jeffrey's?
[Bud Freeman] (0:29)
Catfish.
[Interviewer] (0:30)
Catfish? Oh, where was it?
[Bud Freeman] (0:35)
Oh, it was over there by the elevator someplace.
[Interviewer] (0:40)
Did they make the bricks for the Caldwell School?
[Bud Freeman] (0:44)
No, no.
[Speaker 1] (0:46)
Lee MacDonald told me they made the bricks for that building where the parts place is. And
it's double bricks.
[Interviewer] (0:52)
It's double brick?
[Speaker 1](0:54)
Double brick. He told me today.
[Interviewer] (0:58)
Oh, for heaven's sakes.
[Speaker 1] (1:00)
And the brick plant was over in the elevator neighborhood.
[Interviewer] (1:04)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:06)
[...] concrete blocks and [...]
[Interviewer] (1:09)
They made concrete blocks and bricks?
[Bud Freeman] (1:11)
Yeah, they made those concrete blocks and went to buildings where Essel and where [....] and
[....].
[Interviewer] (1:19)
Oh, they did? Huh.
[Bud Freeman] (1:23)
Charlie Moore, they sold to Charlie Moore.
[Interviewer] (1:26)
Well, he had a lumber yard, didn't he?
[Bud Freeman] (1:28)
Sure. Right down there where the lumber yard is now.
[Interviewer] (1:31)
Yeah. Ruth Skaggs brought me a calendar, an advertising thing from there.
[Bud Freeman] (1:39)
Oh.
[Interviewer] (1:41)
Well, that—what relation was that to A.C. Moore?
[Bud Freeman] (1:47)
Brother?
[Interviewer] (1:48)
A brother.
[Bud Freeman] (1:49)
Charlie and A.C.
[Interviewer] (1:51)
Charlie and A.C. Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (1:55)
Charlie drank himself to death on Coca-Cola.
[Interviewer] (1:59)
On Coca-Cola?
[Bud Freeman] (2:01)
He ruined his belly.
[Interviewer] (2:03)
Oh, well, yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (2:04)
Did you know you can take Coke, the way it used to be made—now, it's milder now—the
way it used to be made, throw a nail in it, it’d eat the nail up. No kidding, they tried it.
[Interviewer] (2:22)
Well, I know they used to—
[Bud Freeman] (2:23)
Old Doc [....]. Or, I mean, Old Doc Rasmussen.
[Interviewer] (2:28)
I know they used to use Coke to put on stuff they couldn't get apart. I've heard Mr. Farley say
he was going to go get a Coke and take it out to Lick Elevator for that.
[Bud Freeman] (2:48)
That Chatham Elevator used to own Lick, Chatham too.
[Interviewer] (2:52)
Yeah. Well, I worked for both of them. But—well, what do you know about Tin Bell?
[Bud Freeman] (3:04)
Well, I know he came here this [...] and married his wife. His wife was old Dan Keller's
daughter. And Harry Keller was her sister—was her brother.
[Interviewer] (3:24)
Was her brother.
[Bud Freeman] (3:26)
Yes.
[Interviewer] (3:26)
What did Harry Keller do around here?
[Bud Freeman] (3:28)
He was a gardener. Built a lot of houses. And he had Marcus Skaggs and—what the hell was
the other guys name? Helped him. And his brother-in-law was Old Man Skaggs...
[Interviewer] (3:51)
Perkins?
[Bud Freeman] (3:52)
Perkins.
[Interviewer] (3:52)
Tom Perkins? Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (3:57)
They built a lot of houses.
[Interviewer] (3:59)
They did. What'd they sell for?
[Bud Freeman] (4:03)
Well, they sold—buying a house in town for $2,000.
[Interviewer] (4:11)
Couldn't get anything for that now, could you?
[Bud Freeman] (4:15)
Could buy a porch.
[Interviewer] (4:17)
Yeah, about the truth.
[Bud Freeman] (4:20)
Hell, my house down there, a guy offered me, well, he offered me $40,000 for it. And I leave
everything there except my clothes. Just walk out. Leave the furniture, everything. Walk out.
[Interviewer] (4:38)
He wanted you to walk out, and he walked in, huh?
[Bud Freeman] (4:42)
That's right.
[Interviewer] (4:43)
Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (4:44)
He had plenty of money. He sold a big farm down in—down in Morrison. His kids was all in
Franklin. His wife had about an eight-room house. Well, she—he was too old to take care of
it, so he was going to move someplace. He said, this suits me to a T. One bedroom., not a
very big living room, one—and a kitchen. And that's about all a person can take.
[Interviewer] (5:27)
And you have to take care of it until you get company.
[Bud Freeman] (5:31)
Well, you get company. Oh, hell. My niece is coming down. Bring those two. And then she's
got, one's seven, one's ten. Joshua and Jason. And she's going to come down on the train. She
lives in West Chicago. She'll come down and catch the train, come down, I'll meet her at the
station. I said, “You'd better watch that Josh, he'll be up there with the engineer.” [laughter]
Oh, he's a character. She has no control of the [...].
[Interviewer] (6:04)
What are you going to do with him?
[Bud Freeman] (6:07)
Well, they’re running around me. I’m [....] roost.
[Interviewer] (6:12)
Oh.
[Bud Freeman] (6:13)
Say, “Hey you, pipe down and kick a bale of hay out.” No kidding. She—she's got two—two
little girl's twins. Them's three and a half. They're a card.
[Interviewer] (6:32)
Well, she's got her hands full, looks like me.
[Bud Freeman] (6:36)
Since she works.
[Interviewer] (6:38)
Four kids and she works.
[Bud Freeman] (6:41)
She's got the best arrangement she ever saw in her life. She teaches school, she teach—
teaches history and English at the Catholic school over in Creighton. And teaches physical ed
[....]. She goes to school, she starts picking up kids at 8 o'clock. She's got a ram [......]. She
picks them up. The woman takes care of the twins, comes 7 o'clock. Peggy and her two boys
are ready to go. Get in the bus, start picking them up. Take her two boys. The woman comes
and watches the twins. She gives the woman that watches the twins $20 a day.
[Interviewer] (7:47)
Oh, that's two kids.
[Bud Freeman] (7:49)
That's right. And she does a lot of work around there. And she used to take care of Joshua
too. Josh, he goes to kindergarten now [....] . But the other one is a farther along and so.
[Interviewer] (8:10)
Were you born in Chatham?
[Bud Freeman] (8:12)
I was born in Springfield. And we moved out across John Stops. And then we moved into
Springfield. And there's a great big house, used to be one of those apartments. It's a joy—a
high-key building. It's down in east end of town. You know where—you remember where the
old Doc James lived?
[Interviewer] (8:43)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (8:43)
Right across the street. It was a great big two-story house. And then McManuses owned all
that pasture and everything on the other side. Across from old Dan Keller's house. See, Dan
Keller owned the house where Grigsby lives now.
[Interviewer] (9:03)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (9:05)
He owned all that acreage clear back to blind Jimmy Dorn's fence. That's where—then Frank
Keller bought a lot where Al Mudd's house was, he bought 120 feet, 260-foot plots.
Telephone offices wide. Martin lives in the house now. But Frank Keller rent it—rented it to
McCulley that was married to Cary...
[Interviewer] (9:51)
Oh, uh Ruth?
[Bud Freeman] (9:56)
Ruth Cary. And they lived there for quite a while. And then he built that house up there most
of [....] used to live.
[Interviewer] (10:12)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (10:13)
He built it. He run the Chatham garage. He bought it from uh, bought it from uh, Jim Owen.
[Interviewer] (10:26)
Jim Owen.
[Bud Freeman] (10:28)
I remember when they had a chicken-picking place back when there was a building, an old
wooden building back then. And they had a chicken-picking place. And the Jeffries all picked
chickens, that's just for a [........].
[Interviewer] (10:43)
Oh, well that wasn't in conjunction with the corn chicken house.
[Bud Freeman] (10:48)
No, no.
[Interviewer] (10:50)
It was—
[Bud Freeman] (10:51)
You know where the first—first chicken house in Sangamon County was on the corner there.
[Interviewer] (10:57)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (11:01)
Your dad run a grocery store over on the west side.
[Interviewer] (11:06)
Was anybody—did Daddy have that by himself or was somebody else in with him?
[Bud Freeman] (11:12)
No, there wasn't anybody in there with him. But Bob Cass worked for him [...] time. And one
of the Allen girls worked for him. Bess Neal.
[Interviewer] (11:28)
Now where was that store?
[Bud Freeman] (11:29)
Right where that parts place is.
[Interviewer] (11:32)
Oh.
[Bud Freeman] (11:33)
And across the street, Charlie Stevens ran a grocery store there. And John Corns rented the
upstairs, and had a dumb waiter come down and we threw it up. That was the first chicken in
the place.
[Speaker 1] (11:49)
It was upstairs?
[Bud Freeman] (11:50)
Sangamon County. Upstairs in our old building.
[Speaker 1] (11:55)
I'll be darned.
[Bud Freeman] (11:56)
There was a dumb waiter and he went in the side entrance upstairs. Then he moved down to
the corner and bought that property and made so much money [...]. That was during
Prohibition time. He used to sell booze down there. He was—
[Speaker 1] (12:16)
That's why so many people came out there for chicken.
[Bud Freeman] (12:20)
All of them did. It was fried. And he had a hell of a business there. And down the other end,
that's where they had—and they had—that's where they killed all the chickens.
[Interviewer] (12:37)
They killed their own chickens?
[Bud Freeman] (12:38)
They killed their own chickens and dressed and cut them up.
[Interviewer] (12:44)
What did they charge for a chicken dinner?
[Bud Freeman] (12:47)
Oh, I don't remember what it was, it was damn cheap. I don't think it was a dollar. [......] Oh,
you've got that thing running?
[Interviewer] (13:01)
Yeah. [laughter] You don’t think I can remember what you tell me, do you?
[Bud Freeman] (13:11)
Huh?
[Interviewer] (13:12)
You don't think I can remember what you're going—
[Bud Freeman] (13:14)
Well, if your computer's in good shape you can, mine [.....] sometimes.
[Interviewer] (13:18)
Well my computer’s not in very good shape either.
[Bud Freeman] (13:22)
[unintelligible]
[Interviewer] (13:23)
Do you remember when the old post office burned?
[Bud Freeman] (13:27)
Yeah.
[Interviewer] (13:29)
What happened, do you know?
[Bud Freeman] (13:31)
Well, I don't know. Did you know who— what the old post office was? It was right next to
where that bank is now. Where—where the—that building had a bank in it. A well-staked
bank. And a grocery store.
[Interviewer] (13:48)
Yeah, and the grocery store dad had.
[Bud Freeman] (13:50)
Yeah. And then on the west side there was an alleyway went through there, and the post
office was there—post office, old wooden post office building. Old man Senate had a cobbler
shop back in there.
[Interviewer] (14:07)
Who was he?
[Bud Freeman] (14:08)
Old Man Senate was a cobbler.
[Interviewer] (14:12)
Yeah, but I've never heard his name before.
[Bud Freeman] (14:14)
Oh, hell. He lived in the back end of the place and he took all his meals down by [.....].
[Interviewer] (14:25)
Grandma Gorey?
[Bud Freeman] (14:30)
Grandma Gordy, yeah.
[Interviewer] (14:31)
Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (14:33)
You don't remember her. Grandma Gordy.
[Interviewer] (14:38)
I think I do.
[Bud Freeman] (14:40)
Oh my. She was a little spotty old gal.
[Interviewer] (14:43)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (14:44)
She used to come out on Sunday morning and go to church.
[Interviewer] (14:53)
Of course, I can remember Aunt Mary Crest better.
[Bud Freeman] (14:55)
Oh, sure, cause After Aunt Mary Gory—or, after Grandma died, why, then in a couple of
years—not for a couple of years—Tommy Batch ran the meat market. And I worked extra so
of course, when I wasn't working, I worked there. And he—and when I wasn't going to
school. But he—he'd go in and put on the dinner and I'd be working the meat market. He'd be
killing hogs in that slaughterhouse over behind that brick building. And now we—then Aunt
Mary moved over to—from over east and lived in the Carberry place off of the hard road and
off of [....] Drive at the back of the field south. They moved over to Mt. B[...]. And He died
over there. So then her and Bill Crest lived moved over here. Bill Crest went to work for
Tom. By that time I was working, I'd gone to work. I was working in town.
[Interviewer] (16:25)
What did you do in town?
[Bud Freeman] (16:28)
Well, I was—I worked at uh, Eisley’s to manage meat markets. I worked for them 37 years.
[Interviewer] (16:40)
They called it Piggly Wiggly.
[Bud Freeman] (16:42)
Yeah, start with we had 21 stores.
[Interviewer] (16:48)
They don't have that many now, do they?
[Bud Freeman] (16:52)
We don't have any. Piggly Wiggly is [....]. But then I worked for Eisley’s when Eisley took it
over.
[Interviewer] (17:04)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (17:05)
But, uh—
[Interviewer] (17:07)
But you got all your training from Uncle Tommy.
[Bud Freeman] (17:10)
Well, most of it, it wasn't—there was a lot of things he didn't know how to do. But he ran a
real grocery store. He used to kill his own hogs, kill his own beef, except on rare occasions.
Had the slaughterhouse down on [.....].
[Interviewer] (17:38)
Was that always down there?
[Bud Freeman] (17:40)
Huh?
[Interviewer] (17:40)
Was the slaughterhouse always down there?
[Bud Freeman] (17:43)
It was the only place I ever knew it to be until they tore it down after Bill Gray give up the
meat market. Bill Gray ran a business at that market here in town. Used to run in, he'd buy
canners and skinners. Tommy Gray never sold any bad [....] buy. Kelly wouldn't buy nothing
but the choice.
[Interviewer] (18:14)
And he gave a lot of it away, didn't he?
[Bud Freeman] (18:17)
Oh, you're damn right.
[Interviewer] (18:19)
During the Depression?
[Speaker 1] (18:20)
Oh, during the Depression he gave everybody stuff.
[Interviewer] (18:22)
Yeah. Good [...]
[Bud Freeman] (18:23)
During the Depression, and when the miners was on strike, Tommy Gray was the nicest guy
here in [....]. I don't think they ever made another guy like him. Not because he was a knuckle
[...], because I sure as hell wouldn't be that way. Of course, I'm from another generation. At
that particular time, I had a knuckle—I mean just the opposite. Of course, he didn't give a
damn for nobody but himself, old Bill Gorey. Bill Gorey, I've seen the time that the miners
was on strike, here'd come a little toe-headed kid, wagging a note from the mother. And I'd
stand up at the door and Tommy'd be asleep in a barber's chair and in the back of the meat
market. Wouldn't be asleep the rest of the time. Anyway, Bill Gorey would be working on
books. He never did any work in the meat market. He worked on books. He got—smoked
cigars. So, Tommy—I'd hear Bill say—Bill would say to me, “Give me that organ meat.”
Hm. “Sorry, we don't have any bacon today. I can let you have something, we've only got—
we don't have any big sacks of flour, five pound sacks of flour.” Tommy'd raise up and say,
“Let me see that note.” I'd take it back there, twenty-five pounds flour, half side of bacon, just
the necessities, you know what I mean. Keep you belly from [....]. Five pounds of beans, two
pounds of rice, and everything. Tommy'd say, “Get them twenty-five pounds flour, them half
side of bacon. They haven't had any beef two months. But cut a couple of nice round steaks,
put them in there, don't charge it for it.” And then at the end he'd say, “Get a big bag and fill
it up with candy for those kids.” Got five kids [......]. Bill would stand there and squawk. He
couldn't say a damn word.
[Interviewer] (21:22)
Bill didn't own any of the store then? Uncle To—
[Bud Freeman] (21:25)
Not a thing. Tommy Corey owned the whole thing. And I'm going to town with him one
morning, prior to doing pick up from [....], we got out to Lick Pick Bridge and said, “Stop the
truck here a minute.” Had a ledger he brought that day. Just throw it over, about ten thousand
dollars’ worth of bills. He said, “Well, you can start over in the morning.” I thought Uncle
Bill was going to die. I thought he was going to die. I'll tell you how crooked Uncle Bill was.
We had—they had an arrangement old man John McCulley, Tommy did. Anything happened
to him Mrs. McCulley was left with Lily and Squab, and Andy—Charlie, Lily, Andy. AND
then I had Mrs. Mill by the other marriage. Then she married again, after old man McCulley
died and married Doctor Green. But, anyway there's about ten acres down there in that place,
and we had [.....]. And Tommy paid his rent by picking up the taxes on the whole property.
You understand? And he had an arrangement with old John McCulley that anything,
groceries that Mrs. McCulley wanted, she was supposed to get it. Within reason.
[Interviewer] (23:24)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (23:26)
And that's the way the thing was. Well, Uncle Tommy, when he died he had all those receipts
where he paid the rent. Well, in his will, Uncle Tommy was pretty smart. He knew Bill never
made a living in his life working for anybody. He never did make [....]. Worked for Uncle
John Gorey, I worked for Uncle Tom.
[Interviewer] (23:58)
What'd John Gorey do?
[Bud Freeman] (24:00)
He was shoe storage, paper [...].
[Interviewer] (24:02)
Oh, okay.
[Bud Freeman] (24:03)
So anyway—but, anyway they—what did he do? Old Bill, he gets those rent receipts together
and takes them up to the courthouse and was going to claim that property back. So he paid
rent on Uncle Tommy, Tommy did, and he was Uncle Tony's heir. So [....] come to me and
he said—I said, “Don't do anything about it.” I went to him and I really cussed him out. I told
him, I said, “You're going to be the biggest thief, they'll have to screw you in the ground
when you die because you can't bury a straight bastard.” [....] I said, “You know damn well
what the pitch was in that. I knew it, you knew it.” I said, “What did you you’d gain by it?” I
said, “You'd better not do anything more about it because if you do I'm on Andy's side, and I
know the arrangements because Uncle Tommy told me the arrangements.” I'll tell you a guy
around here that everybody gave hell to and wasn't as bad as they let on was old Jakey Po[...].
You've heard of old Jakey Po[...].
[Interviewer] (25:26)
Yeah I've heard of him. What did he do?
[Bud Freeman] (25:30)
Well, he—all he did was travel around through the country and buy veal calves and so forth
and invest money. He worked at Satler Plow Works, Springfield, and he had—he was a
foreman there. Henry Ford come through here selling stock in his automobile. Nobody had
any money back in those days. It was early 1900's, you know, and he bought stock in that
automobile. He bought $500. 1930 ’32, guy came through here buying that stock up. He
wanted to buy Jakey's stock. Jakey had been clipping the coupons all the time. They offered
Jakey $15,000 for it and Jakey wouldn't sell it. When Jakey finally sold it he sold the stock
for about $100,000.
[Interviewer] (26:42)
That's pretty good investment wasn't it?
[Bud Freeman] (26:23)
And you know who got the money?
[Interviewer] (26:44)
Uh-uh.
[Bud Freeman] (26:45)
Sunny Williams got it [...]. That was his [....].
[Interviewer] (26:50)
Oh.
[Speaker 1] (26:52)
Where did—where did Jakey live?
[Bud Freeman] (26:54)
He lived right next to—see where the bank is? That was Doc Bradley's house.
[Speaker 1] (27:02)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (27:03)
And that other house next door that's where Jakey lived. Where that firewood’s always piled
up of course.
[Interviewer] (27:12)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (27:13)
I don't know who lives there. But that's where Jakey lived. Jakey was a character. But I'll tell
you what. Town was poor, you know. The guys worked in the coal field. [unintelligible]
[Interviewer] (27:30)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (27: 31)
And in the summertime, you know, it was striking. About the last of April, it was striking.
Not all the time but most of the time. So anyway, Jakey’d be in Uncle Tommy's, and they
would say to Uncle Tommy, they'd say, “Who is this little kid?” Well, Uncle Tommy said, “I
don't really know, ask Bud.” They'd ask me, I knew everybody in town. That's where they
had they had—they had to register to vote. And in the township, I don't think there was over a
thousand in the township. There was nine, seven hundred in town or something. And Tommy
would say, “Give you $10, you write the poll book.” I'd go in and sit down, take the old poll
book, just go down and copy it off, write the new one. I knew everybody in the county. Only
three precincts in Chatham township. Where they'd moved in, when they moved in, give
practically the date they moved in, put the date down to the side and so forth. It come out [...].
[unintelligible]. I can write pretty good—I can't hardly write at all. I scribble like that. I can
write a check. When I'm in good shape, by then I write—I sign a few checks. [laughter]
[Interviewer] (29:19)
[...] signed [....] [laughter]
[Bud Freeman] (29:22)
But—but old Jakey come to me and say, “Bad shape,” he’d say, “Yeah, fix him up with $20
worth of groceries, what they need, you know, take it down to him.” I fixed him up a couple
bushel baskets full of groceries, that was about $20. Big roast, Sunday dinner, and that's how
they sliced the [....] maybe a bunch of weeds, maybe some boiled g[...], some canned goods,
garden stuff, you know [...] they had—they worked they raised everything they could to eat.
All they needed was staples. Sugar, flour, coffee. Fixed it up, take it down to him. He did it
many and many a time, nobody ever knew. Say, “Well, you had a sponsor, a guy come in,
knew you—knew you, said bring you down these groceries.” I never did tell him who really
give them to him, but he—I'll bet he's given away—he gave away close to $4 or $5 million a
year. People didn't know [...] buying groceries, “Well, where's old Jakey?” “Well, he was on
here, yeah.”
[Interviewer] (31:20)
He was.
[Bud Freeman] (31:23)
He was onery.
[Interviewer] (31:25)
Right.
[Bud Freeman] (31:26)
[unintelligible] But I know I was vealing calves for him. Come to me and he said, “How
about you veal my calves?” “Well, I don't want to work for you, Jakey.” He said, “You're
tight as the bark on a tree and you resent anybody making any money.” I said, “You have so
damn many faults that you can give half your fortune away instead of doing compensate for
what you do.” I said, “I don’t want to work for you.” Then he go around to Tommy and said,
“Can't you get him to veal those calves?” [.........] And I—so I said, “Yah.” Well, Tommy
said, “Can you veal them for him?” [......] I said okay. So I said, “Well [...],” he said, “Fifty
cents a [....]. Thanks so much.” [....] I call him on the phone he said, “Who's vealing your
calves for you?” I said, “You know I've been docking you 3 cents a pound cause we had to
throw so much of it away. And that meat and so forth was all dirty.” He said, “Well, I've got
a guy who’ll veal them for me,” he said, “I'm going to give you 2 cents over the market price
for them.”v
[Interviewer] (32:54)
‘Cause you had vealed them.
[Bud Freeman] (32:56)
Yeah, they were cleans. I knew how to do it. And—but I could veal about four. I'd go down
there and take me about an hour and a half and I could veal four. Oh, he resented that. I'd veal
four and I'd get 2 dollars! And you could hire a guy at that time for a dollar a day to work!
[Interviewer] (33:20)
Yeah. [...]
[Bud Freeman] (33:21)
Oh, jeez, it blew his stack! So one week I worked—I'd go down five o'clock, you know, and
then go school or high school [...] he'd say. And anyway, he said to me, he said, “You're
making too damn much money. I'm paying you too much money.” I said, “Well, Jakey, did
you ever figure it out? You veal—you send 5 calves down there, and they weigh a thousand
pounds and you get 2 cents over the market.” And I said, “Jeez, you know how much money
you're making?” I said, “You're making 20 dollars!” And I said, “What the hell!” I said,
“That's 20 dollars more than you were making, and you're only paying me, to veal four of
them, two dollars so you're making eight dollars more than you should be making.” “Ain't
right, ain't right,” he said. “No boy should make that much money and go to school besides.”
He said, “I'm going to cut you down 35 cents.” I said, “You're going to play hell, I'm not
going to veal any calves for you.” I wouldn't veal any for him. And went on for weeks,
couple weeks, three. Jeez, I said, “Cut him way back.” He said, “Who you got vealing your
calves? I lost the help I had veal.” So I went to Uncle Tommy, said, “I know he won't veal for
me but I'm afraid to ask. Will you ask him for me?” So Uncle Tommy stood right in front of
me, he said, “You want to start vealing calves for this guy again?” I said, “Not particularly.
What the hell, I'm getting by, Uncle Tommy.” He said, “Hell I'll do alright.” I said, “He's a
god damn tyrant,” I said, “He's mercenary,” I said. Hell, I explained to Uncle Tommy, I said,
“Here he's making extra money and he don't want to—he don't want to share it with anybody.
He's a jerk.” And he said—I said, “Well I'll veal calves for you. Cost you 75 cents.” “Oh,” he
said, “oh, I don't know, I'll have to think it over.” Go think it over. “I'd rather not do it.” He
said, “Why not?” “I told you why.” He said [...] said to me, “Well,” called me on the phone,
“got six head now, come down and veal.” Be there in the morning, five o'clock, veal them, I
called him on the phone, I said, “Well, we're back in business. I'm going to give you two
cents over the market price [...].” So I veal, oh I guess [unintelligible] the calves it's all,
couldn't get enough calves. That's what he did. He had a pickup truck, he went to the country,
bought the veal calves off a farmer, the farmer wanted the herd to go back milking but he said
[......] calves. He'd buy them. [....]
[Interviewer] (37:11)
Who are you relation to? When you was getting fifty cents and then you went to seventy
five?
[Bud Freeman] (37:20)
Uncle Tommy.
[Interviewer] (37:21)
Oh.
[Bud Freeman] (37:22)
Gordon.
[Interviewer] (37:22)
You're relation to Uncle Tommy on that.
[Bud Freeman] (37:24)
Well—
[Interviewer] (37:24)
That don't sound like Uncle Tommy, Bud.
[Bud Freeman] (37:27)
What?
[Interviewer] (37:28)
Huh?
[Bud Freeman] (37: 28)
Well, I was vealing for Jakey.
[Interviewer] (37:30)
Yeah I know you were. But somebody—you must have been in relation to somebody that
taught you how to do stuff like that
[Bud Freeman] (37:42)
Well Tommy did. Tom Gordon. I went to work for Tommy when I was—when World War II
come. He had Red Hepburn and Frank Austin. They were the butchers. Old man Austin lived
down on Mulberry Street where that guy, that iron worker lives now, at that house. And he
had them working the butchers in the shop. I didn't work there. I went home, called my
mother on the telephone and said, “Send Walter up, I want him. He can wrap up packages for
me, sweep out the shop, put stuff on the shelf and so forth.” He's old. So I went up and I went
to work.
[Interviewer] (38:42)
How much?
[Bud Freeman] (38:44)
Oh, he paid me 75 cents a day, something like that. That's pretty good money, isn’t it?
[Interviewer] (38:52)
[unintelligible]
[Bud Freeman] (38:53)
Didn’t know that.
[Interviewer] (38:55)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (39:00)
I guess he's paying me 75 cents cause I—he used to render lard out back. That they had to
[...] them.
[Interviewer] (39:14)
Cracklins?
[Bud Freeman] (39:15)
Yes.
[Interviewer] (39:15)
Remember them?
[Bud Freeman] (39:18)
I used to have a budget back there, for cracklins. Kids used to come down the alley. And, I
don't know whether you ever got any.
[Interviewer] (39:27)
Yeah. mom liked [....].
[Bud Freeman] (39:22)
Probably why your grandmother, she'd come house for us that's why.
[Interviewer] (39:39)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (39:39)
Back then when I'd probably give you extra help.
[Interviewer] (39:45)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (39:47)
Oh, they'd come out red hot.
[Speaker 1] (39:50)
Oh they were good, weren’t they?
[Bud Freeman] (39:53)
See that was running off the hog.
[Interviewer] (39:55)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (39:55)
That's just what you get. We’d divide those damn things [...] 15 cents for a little package.
Hell, every one of those kids took home—a market price today you'd get 25 cents for it.
[Interviewer] (40:08)
Yes. Yeah—
[Bud Freeman] (40:10)
Now, they'd come down that alley like a swarm of hungry hogs [......].
[Interviewer] (40:20)
Well that train that used to bring the groceries—they used to have the groceries come in on
the train didn't they?
[Bud Freeman] (40:27)
ITS and the train both.
[Interviewer] (40:29)
Yeah, [....]
[Bud Freeman] (40:31)
You'd have to haul them by wagon.
[Interviewer] (40:32)
[...] wagon up there?
[Bud Freeman] (40:35)
Yeah.
[Interviewer] (40:35)
After that was it Clavengers had a store too?
[Bud Freeman] (40:39)
Clavenger had a store after, uh...
[Interviewer] (40:43)
After Dad had it?
[Bud Freeman] (40:44)
Yeah. I got some of those goods for 50 cents change [........].
[Interviewer][ (40:53)
Oh, well you have?
[Bud Freeman] (40:55)
Sure, why?
[Interviewer] (40:57)
Will you let us exhibit them?
[Bud Freeman] (41:01
Well, actually, I don’t know where they are [unintelligible]. Well, what happened [...] I gave
them all away, most of them. I gave old Evoy [...] away. I had a bunch of—where your house
was—
[Interviewer] (41:15]
Yeah?
[Bud Freeman] (41:16)
—that used to be a tavern and a lodge. The flea house, they called it.
[Interviewer] (41:24)
The flea house.
[Bud Freeman] (41:25)
That's right, your dad belonged to the flea.
[Interviewer] (41:29)
I never heard of that organization.
[Bud Freeman] (41:30)
Your dad belonged to the flea, and anyway, your dad bought that whole building. And the
lumber in that building—when he built that house there—the lumber on that building went
into that house.
[Interviewer] (41:51)
He tore it down and built the house.
[Bud Freeman] (41:54)
Yeah. Of course, he put some other lumber in—
[Interviewer] (41:56)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (41:56)
—had to.
[Interviewer] (41:57)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (41:57)
But then, that's where that house come from. But that house was right there next to the barber
shop.
[Interviewer] (42:06)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (42:07)
But your lot run right over to the—right over to the edge of the barber shop.
[Interviewer] (42:12)
Yeah. Still did when I sold it.
[Bud Freeman] (42:15)
And then when it—it went straight back. Your lot was square with the alley, went straight
back to another alley that went through the other way,
[Interviewer] (42:26)
Yeah, I remember that.
[Bud Freeman] (42:29)
And remember there was a blacksmith shop set on the corner?
[Interviewer] (42:32)
Yeah. Yeah, John Taylor Lowes.
[Bud Freeman] (42:36)
Yes, and old—old Dick Stack built a little house in the back yard of his mother's house which
still stands there next to the powerhouse. Taylor lived at the powerhouse.
[Interviewer] (42:52)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (42:54)
And the powerhouse was right down the alley. Taylor's house was back behind, down to the
south. But then, uh—no, Grandma Gorey, there was nine of those kids. And my mother was
in the middle. And Jabber was next to the youngest, and Sally who lived in East St. Louis
was the young one.
[Interviewer] (43:25)
Aunt Sarah.
[Bud Freeman] (43:26)
Yeah Sally. And we [unintelligible]. And Uncle Bill, Uncle Bill was next to her, then there
was Jabber, then there was my mother, and then Aunt Nell.
[Interviewer] (43:27)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (43:47)
And Aunt May, Aunt Marguerite—Irvine's mother—and then there was Uncle John Gorey
run the shoe store in Franklin. None of those Gorey's were out here.
[Interviewer] (44:03)
Yeah. What did that Jabber do?
[Bud Freeman] (44:06)
Jabber?
[Interviewer] (44:07)
Yeah, did he live here in Springfield? [unintelligible]
[Bud Freeman] (44:12)
Jabber was drunk for 40 years.
[Interviewer] (44:15)
Yeah but wasn't there a story behind that?
[Bud Freeman] (44:18)
Well yeah, he was married to Zelaine.
[Interviewer] (44:21)
Married to who?
[Bud Freeman] (44:23)
Zelaine. Zelaine was Johnny Jagger's sister. And she died in childbirth, and was quite a
shock, I guess, and he worked for Hamilton Brown Shoe Company [...] assistant sales
manager, had a hell of a job. Came back here on Christmas and him and Catfish, Doug, and
all of them got big drunk, never did work anymore, he just [....] once in a while.
[Interviewer] (45:06)
Upstairs under his bed there was a trunk of baby clothes.
[Bud Freeman] (45:11)
And what about it?
[Interviewer] (45:12)
There was, I'd seen—I saw them.
[Bud Freeman] (45:19)
He was no dummy, he was a smart guy, but—and he was a good guy, he never bothered. All
them drunks.
[Speaker 1] (45:29)
Well, they never really bothered anybody any of them, did they?
[Bud Freeman] (45:32)
No.
[Interviewer] (45:33)
Well, they just wouldn't let you sleep at night.
[Bud Freeman] (45:35)
Well, there was Johnny Jack [....] where you lived, they wouldn't let you sleep.
[Interviewer] (945:39)
No.
[Bud Freeman] (45:40)
‘Cause they'd set and sing and everything.
[Interviewer] (45:43)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (45:44)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (45:45)
But I'll tell you what, there was two Snodgrasses, Les and Jim. Beautiful tenor voices. Jim
[...] had a deep bass voice, Frank Austin baritone. Three of them come back from Springfield
and they'd [...] get a drink out of the old town well that the kids tore up—you know they
made a fountain out of it—
[Interviewer] (46:14)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (46:15)
—and goddam kids in town then tore it up. And when I was growing up, why, we respected
that town well, ‘cause hell, you could get a cold drink of water anytime. People traveling,
they'd stop there and get a drink of water, everything. Hell, we didn't dare—we never even
stole a cup from them. All drank out of the same cup.
[Interviewer] (46:39)
Yup.
[Bud Freeman] (46:39)
Kind of rusty, never killed nobody.
[Interviewer] (46:42)
No.
[Bud Freeman] (46:43)
But I moved to Springfield and a couple of years after I was in Springfield I come out and I
said, “Where the hell is the town fountain?” Well the damn monkeys tore it up. Kids tore it
all down. Ted Workman, all that bunch of Indians that came out from my generation—it was
in your generation.
[Interviewer] (47:09)
Well, they were just a little bit older than I am—not much, but just a little.
[Bud Freeman] (47:13)
They tore it up. But anyway, those guys—Jabber he never was, uh—he never harmed
nobody. Or Doug. Doug [......] saved on a peanut farm, climbed up on a water tower, that's
all.
[Interviewer] (47:41)
The Chatham Water Tower?
[Bud Freeman] (47:42)
Yeah. The Jeffreyses—the Jeffrersons— they never harmed anybody. And the Frys. Well,
that was World War I, ‘cause Doug was gassed bad in World War I, and he never got a
pension, compensation like you get now. You—he didn't get enough to live on. How did he
[.....] he bought—he built this well, you know.
[Interviewer] (48:20)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman (48:22)
[unintelligible]
[Speaker 1] (48:25)
Yeah. Who ran the old hotel? Wasn't it between where A1 Tavern is and AJ's Tavern?
[Bud Freeman] (48:34)
There was a house next to—next to where that building is now. There was a house, I
remember when they built that building, you know. AJ Andrews built that building. He run
the meat market—the grocery store where Opal's house is, that building I was talking about.
[Interviewer] (48:57)
Yeah, the flea—
[Bud Freeman] (48:58)
The grocery store.
[Speaker 1] (48:59)
Flea Mart.
[Interviewer] (49:00)
Flea—
[Bud Freeman] (49:00)
Flea Mart.
[Interviewer] (49:01)
Flea House.
[Bud Freeman] (49:02)
Yeah. Flea Club.
[Interviewer] (49:03)
Flea Club.
[Bud Freeman] (49:04)
And then they—then AJ Andrews bought that house, tore it down, built that park. But the old
hotel was still there. Perky Whitney ended up owning the old hotel.
[Speaker 1] (49:22)
Oh, did he run it?
[Bud Freeman] (49:24)
Oh, hell no.
[Speaker 1] (49:26)
[...] Perky—
[Interviewer] (49:26)
Perky didn't do nothing, did he?
[Bud Freeman] (49:28)
Yeah, Perky—he passed the railroad mail clerk's examination, he worked on the—
headquartered in Chicago, he worked for about 15 years.
[Speaker 1] (49:40)
Oh, did he?
[Interviewer] (49:44)
But anyway, the old hotel, what’d it do, burn down, or?
[Bud Freeman] (49:48)
I think that eventually part of it burnt and then they tore the rest of it down.
[Interviewer] (49:53)
But didn’t—
[Bud Freeman] (49:53)
But you know the old school house, the original school house, was right west of where
Everett Carey's building is, you know that? Right west of were Everett—
[Interviewer] (50:07)
Yeah, it was a two story frame building, wasn't it?
[Bud Freeman] (50:10)
Yeah, and it had a cupola on the top of it.
[Speaker 1] (50:14)
Right west of it—
[Bud Freeman] (50:15)
We used to play pitch down there. Play cards down there.
[Interviewer] (50:20)
You mean right west where the bank is now?
[Speaker 1] (50:23)
No. Where Herb Carey's—
[Bud Freeman] (50:25)
Where Carey's—
[Speaker 1] (50:27)
Garage.
[Bud Freeman] (50:28)
Where that garage building—where that auction house is.
[Speaker 1] (50:31)
Oh. Okay.
[Bud Freeman] (50:33)
We blew out the street.
[Speaker 1] (50:36)
Oh yeah, okay.
[Bud Freeman] (50:37)
There was just a small path right between the building and the old school house, that's where
the old school house was. Where they built the new school house.
[Interviewer] (50:46)
it was moved out to Sam Loeb's—or Gordon Loeb's.
[Bud Freeman] (50:52)
They moved what was left of it out there.
[Interviewer] (50:54)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (50:55)
I didn’t know.
[Interviewer] (50:56)
Yeah. And built a barn out of it.
[Speaker 1] (50:58)
[....] did it.
[Unknown] (51:05)
I don't know.
[Speaker 1] (51:09)
What was her name that lived down on Walnut Street? Tracy?
[Interviewer] (51:13)
Oh, Sally Tracy?
[Speaker 1] (51:14)
Sally Tracy.
[Bud Freeman] (51:55)
[unintelligible]
[Speaker 1] (51:19)
Didn't she used to live up this way? Because when we lived in the brick house—
[Bud Freeman] (51:28)
There used to be a colored family lived—the Williamses. Williams. They farmed out west.
The old—it was lined up by Jim Warren [...] now Ray Byers owns it. But Williams—which
school the colored [....]
[Interviewer] (51:54)
Well, wasn't there some that lived down on the east end of town?
[Bud Freeman] (51:57)
That's right, over on Chestnut Street.
[Interviewer] (51:59)
Was that the same family?
[Bud Freeman] (52:01)
Oh, no, no. [....] red headed people live there. I'm not kidding you!
[Speaker 1] (52:10)
Now, I kind of remember Mom talking about that.
[Interviewer] (52:14)
Red headedness?
[Bud Freeman] (52:15)
[unintelligible] That's right.
[Interviewer] (52:17)
Huh. Well, I know that—now there used to be some of them that would come out here once
in a while to funerals.
[Bud Freeman] (52:24)
That was the way, there was girls [...] they had good education, went to school, graduated
high school here. Couple of them went to prom.
[Speaker 1] (52:35)
What time do you got?
[Interviewer] (52:37)
Um 8:30.
[Bud Freeman] (52:41)
Huh? That's very cool.
[Interviewer] (52:48)
Well, don't you want to know anything more to tell us?
[Bud Freeman] (52:51)
I don't know.
[Interviewer] (52:53)
You don't know anymore?
[Bud Freeman] (52:56)
You should ask me something. I don't...
[Interviewer] (53:59)
Well—
[Bud Freeman] (53:00)
Want to know?
[Interviewer] (53:01)
Um, where’d Mike Evoy come from?
[Bud Freeman] (53:07)
Hell, I don't know. There was Mike—
[Interviewer] (53:09)
Well, hey, you didn't tell us where your family came from originally.
[Bud Freeman] (53:15)
Well, Eamon Junod's got old man Pat Gorey’s citizenship papers.
[Interviewer] (53:23)
Oh he has?
[Bud Freeman] (53:24)
[...] Old Pat Gorey.
[Interviewer] (53:28)
Huh.
[Bud Freeman] (53:28)
My grandpa.
[Interviewer] (53:31)
Your grandpa. Where’d he come from?
[Bud Freeman] (53:33)
Come from Ireland. County Cork. She came from—my grandmother came from County
Cork. Junod and I used to always kid Aunt Nell and Aunt Sally. Of course, my mother died
when I was 12 years old, so I couldn't kid her about it [...]. We used to say, “Do you reckon
that old Pat Gorey kind of paddled under the channel a little bit down there?” And, “God
damn, he's gone hog wild.” [laughter] They moved here and lived out on—lived in a little
house out by [...] Horse Farm. And then they moved into town. They moved where they are,
owned that ground next to Frank Hirschman's. Frank Hirschman's barn. And—and I guess
they—I don't know, maybe they had a big old house and she took in roomers. Had a long hall
upstairs. Had five or six rooms up there. ‘Course, she had a big family, all them kids. And
where the butcher shop was. they run a tavern there.
[Interviewer] (54:59)
It was a tavern before it was a butcher shop?
[Bud Freeman] (55:01)
Yeah, and Uncle Tommy tore it down, put up that big building for the butcher shop [...].
[Interviewer] (55:08)
Oh.
[Bud Freeman] (55:12)
Do you remember the big barn? Do you remember the big barn?
[Interviewer] (55:15)
Oh, I sure do. They had—
[Bud Freeman] (55:17)
All the sawdust?
[Interviewer] (55:19)
Yeah, and all the stacks of hides.
[Bud Freeman] (55:21)
Yeah.
[Interviewer] (55:22)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (55:23)
He'd shake those hides. That's when we—we killed the meat down there and we piled one on
top of one another and salted them down. And then the man from Darling and Company
would come by and we'd shake the salt off them, tie them up, stink, stink like hell after you
stirred them up, you know. Take them down, pile them up in a cart, ship them to Chicago. By
trains. Tie them and ship to Chicago. Darling and Company.
[Interviewer] (55:59)
Darling and Company. How many—
[Bud Freeman] (56:03)
He used to pay me $15 for shaking those hides. I had a pair of trousers, a pair of shoes, and a
shirt, no underwear, and I'd put them clothes on and my grandmother would heat up some
water in the oil house back behind the meat market, I'd take a bath, step in and change clothes
[....] smell [....]. You've been back in there.
[Interviewer] (56:39)
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (56:41)
That ice house I put up—used to put ice up every winter, you know. We used to have some
severe winters. They had a pond right down here by the cemetery, had it dammed up, old man
Butler did. Had a pond there. We used to—kids would skate on it. And you know the kids
back then were a hell lot more respectful of property than the kids today. Now the kids today,
if a house becomes vacant, the beat all the windows out of it, and tear the doors out of it, and
try to just tear it up as much as they can. I don't know whether they're taught that at home or
not. I sometimes think they are. Taught it at home. But anyway, that old mansion was out
there, had 34 rooms in it.
[Interviewer] (57:36)
Oh—
[Bud Freeman] (57:37)
The Herb Frohman place.
[Interviewer] (57:39)
Yeah, Frohman.
[Bud Freeman] (57:40)
Frohman place. And it was on a pond, a nice pond. Mr. Frohman had some spare lumber, he
gave us enough lumber for the kids here, and we built it ourselves, said, “Build it right in
those trees there.” Trees would be over the top of it. Said, “I'll give you enough tarp you can
put over it.” Said it might not be the best in the world, keep the children off of it. We built it
with wings off like that and we used to go skating there in the winter time. And we used to
walk out there about twice a year everybody’d bring a broom and a shovel from home and
we'd go in that empty house—it wasn't rented nobody lived there—we'd go in that empty
house, we'd start the top, we’d sweep out every room, clean it up, take all the spiderwebs out,
we'd bring a spray that they'd spray cattle with, spray the thing all over to get rid of the
varmints and everything, and clean that place up. Never broke a window or a latch on the
door or nothing. Never was locked or anything else.
[Interviewer] (59:01)
Hm. You [...]—
[Bud Freeman] (59:02)
We respected that place because that man was awful good to us and he—and another thing:
we wouldn't do it anyway, because we was taught at home you don't destroy stuff like that,
you don't destroy somebody else's property. But today I don't know who teaches these kids
anything, they don't teach them that. It's a wonder they don't have gangs [....] come down the
street and throw through—through the windows of houses people live in. They do that over in
nigger town, over in the west side of town.
[Interviewer] (59:41)
You talked about putting up ice in the sum—in the winter.
[Bud Freeman] (59:46)
Yeah.
[Interviewer] (59:47)
Where did you do that at?
[Bud Freeman] (59:49)
In that old barn back there, remember the sawdust?
[Interviewer] (59:52)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (59:54)
Well, it was—in the middle it was squared off, barn.
[Interviewer] (1:00:00)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:00:00)
Didn't have any loft there.
[Interviewer] (1:00:02)
No.
[Bud Freeman] (1:00:03)
Part of it had a loft—where we kept the hides had a loft. Part of a loft. Other part was square
and the walls of it was four inches of sawdust, went five, six feet down the ground. And there
was sawdust there and I put the ice one right after the other, right on there and filled sawdust
all around there, and then put a layer chipped ice, layer of sawdust, and more—more ice,
piled it the other way. So I piled it in there, pushed them together. [....] to tamp the sawdust in
on the side and threw, oh, that much of sawdust over the top of it and we didn't open it up
until about the middle of July. Opened it up. We didn’t—that's what we cooled the meat with,
we didn't have any refrigerators.
[Interviewer] (1:01:11)
Now where'd you get this ice at?
[Bud Freeman] (1:01:13)
Off the pond!
[Interviewer] (1:01:14)
Off of the pond—down by the [.....] place or down by the slaughter house?
[Bud Freeman] (1:01:18)
Well, what—no, slaughterhouse [......]. Off the butler pond most of the time. We have taken
some off the pond off the creek out there. Not very often. Was too far to haul it.
[Interviewer] (1:01:36)
Do you ever remember Lick Creek getting high enough that it came over the bridge?
[Bud Freeman] (1:01:43)
Yeah.
[Interviewer] (1:01:43)
Do you?
[Bud Freeman] (1:01:44)
Came over the top of the bridge. Oh, it vanished, it all vanished. It was four foot on the road.
[Interviewer] (1:01:54)
What happened?
[Bud Freeman] (1:01:56)
We had rain for about four or five days here, and it rained four or five inches every day, and
it just flooded, and flooded, and flooded. And we'd get—there was four or five of us went out
there and went swimming in it [......]. We got in the water and we couldn't get out of the water
until we got to the railroad bridge [......]. We hit the abutments there and got out. We had to
walk [...]. Naked. April, cold, and on the wrong side of the god dang bridge, and we had to
walk across the railroad track on the trusses, then walk down, walk up on the side where it
closed. Stops [........]
[Interviewer] (1:02:58)
Well, you didn't drown.
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:00)
We didn't drown [unintelligible].
[Interviewer] (1:03:04)
What did you get? Any heck when you got home? How many of you were there?
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:11)
[unintelligible]
[Interviewer] (1:03:12)
Who were they?
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:15)
Oh, Rusty Bradley and myself. Don McClernand.
[Speaker 1] (1:03:22)
Goof?
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:23)
And Goof McClernand, oh, Don. Did you see him when he was back here?
[Interviewer] (1:03:27)
No, I didn't see him.
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:29)
Oh, he’s big, tall guy.
[Speaker 1] (1:03:33)
Curly-headed.
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:34)
Oh, a shock of curly hair, got a lot of it.
[Interviewer] (1:03:38)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:40)
Very nice-looking fella. He’s about the same age I am.
[Interviewer] (1:03:45)
What other escapades did you get into?
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:52)
I never got into much escapades.
[Interviewer] (1:03:54)
Oh, you didn't? What was that one?
[Bud Freeman] (1:03:56)
Well that [....]
[Interviewer] (1:03:58)
Every night?
[Speaker 1} (1:03:59)
What about Halloween?
[Bud Freeman] (1:04:01)
Oh yes, Halloween means terror time. Jude got in on that a couple of times.
[Interviewer] (1:04:09)
Yeah, I've heard a few stories like that.
[Bud Freeman] (1:04:15)
He was alright. He was a character.
[Interviewer] (1:01:21)
Yeah, he was. He was a Jew and they called [unintelligible]
[Bud Freeman] (1:04:28)
He was a character. Oh, he was, he was a character.
[Interviewer] (1:04:37)
Well what did he do?
[Bud Freeman] (1:04:42)
Did you ever hear—your mother told you, I’m sure, about [tape cuts off]
[Interviewer] (1:04:48)
Now, what about silverware? [laughter]
[Bud Freeman] (1:04:53)
Your dad, he was having some salesman come from St. Louis, thought that was him.
[Interviewer] (1:05:03)
Oh was that when he had the store?
[Bud Freeman] (1:05:06)
When he told your mother, he said, “I got couples I want to bring home for dinner. I want you
to cook bits of that and so forth [......] and I'm going to bring him down to lunch.” He never
called her back, told me, and come noon time he was ready to go home, he said—oh god
what did he do? So he took bus, meal and bench [....].
[Interviewer] (1:05:45)
Oh no [laughter]
[Bud Freeman] (1:05:48)
Jesus, your mother was nervous.
[Interviewer] (1:05:50)
Well, you know he started to build that house uptown and did not tell her. Somebody else
went down and told her.
[Bud Freeman] (1:05:58)
That's right. Could be.
[Interviewer] (1:06:00)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:06:04)
Bought that building. Tore it down, stacked them up [....]. I probably knew he was building
the house.
[Interviewer] (1:06:12)
Well she didn’t know it!
[Bud Freeman] (1:06:13)
I went over there and helped him. Had Evoy and I helped him dig the ditch [...] get in to [....]
across the street.
[Interviewer] (1:06:20)
Yeah. Do you remember Woodrow Wilson?
[Bud Freeman] (1:06:23)
Oh, Woodrow run that restaurant down there.
[Interviewer] (1:06:27)
Yeah? Well dad—
[Bud Freeman] (1:06:28)
I want to tell you something about your dad.
[Interviewer] (1:06:30)
What?
[Bud Freeman] (1:06:33)
Your dad had a bus needle.
[Interviewer] (1:06:35)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:06:37)
That's true.
[Interviewer] (1:06:38)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:06:40)
The Allen girl was—took care of the books and so forth, and he sat, worked in the store.
Every Saturday, it seemed like, the cash register would come up twenty maybe forty dollars
short. He said to me, he said, “Somebody is stealing me blind.” I said, “Well, who uses your
cash register?” “These guys,” he said, “nobody but the help.” I said, “Think back, isn’t there
an occasion you get busy and so forth and a guy goes back?” “Oh god, I got it.” There was a
guy the name of Smith lived down there.
[Interviewer] (1:07:35)
Smith?
[Bud Freeman] (1:07:37)
Smith. Smith came out, he—he watched the garage at night. He was the night watchman.
And cleaned cars up and so forth.
[Interviewer] (1:07:57)
For which garage?
[Bud Freeman] (1:07:59)
Cary's.
[Interviewer] (1:08:00)
Cary’s.
[Bud Freeman] (1:08:01)
And he was off on Saturday night. And then he come back and he had to work on Sunday. I
didn't know too much about him, just my son and he always messed around and come up
about one o'clock I guess, and go in your dad's store, buy some cigars or something like that
[....]. But he'd wait until they were all busy. Probably doing something [....] should be
working on Sunday, [...] loaded up the wagon [....]. And the girl would be busy waiting on a
customer, and he'd say, “I got half dozen cigars, it's almost train time.” And he'd go back and
ring them up himself.
[Interviewer] (1:09:00)
Oh.
[Bud Freeman] (1:09:02)
And they cost about nickel a piece. He got five cigars, that's a quarter, see, have a dollar.
Have a dollar in, get 75 cents out [....]. So Bob at noon in there when nobody was around,
he'd [....] all the tens and twenties and put a fancy mark on them. And Chuck McGuire was
working for Woodrow Wilson down there, and the rest when they had a slot machine. And
that's the maddest I ever saw him get. Woodrow Wilson was cooking back there and Chuck
was putting down the tables and so forth, a little old diner like this, right there next to the IPS
station, and he called Chuck and he said, “Smitty comes in there and he breaks a bill, a big
bill, twenty or ten, why, let me know. It'll have it'll have on there ‘Jew’—J-E-W.” And so
[......] and he got to playing the slot machine, he got the [....]. And then nickel, a dime, a
quarter, playing the quarter he got [....]. So, he said—McGuire, he said, “Cash this twenty for
me, will you?” He said, “Give me five dollars’ worth of quarters.” Well he never was
uptown, never did anything, he's always working nights. Well, he [.......] would say, but you’d
say that he saved his money, so he could afford to do what he wanted. But anyway, Chuck
looked at it and it had “Jew” written on it. Called the Jew, here comes Jew down the street,
and I was working [....] in the meat market and I just happened to be up in front of him and I
saw him go, “Where the hell are you going in such a hurry?” “[...] so and so,” he said. “I'll go
down there and I’ll beat all that hell out of him.” Yeah. Your dad was a real good [...]. This
guy was a good [....] but Chuck was there too, and Woodrow was there, with his shot—with
his pistol. And the god dang—oh, the Jew went in and tore out and got him right in the
corner. “Oh, no, no, no, I would do nothing like that to you, Jew.” Got that god dang twenty
dollar [...].” Said, “You just change that twenty, and lookie there it's written on there: Jew.
See it?” He said, “I'm not going to call Springfield and have you arrested. I'm not going to do
anything to you at all. But if I see you here tomorrow, or any time after and in five years. I'll
have you [....].” And he went down home and changed his clothes, and that's when you’d
catch the ITS every hour, got on that train and went. Nobody ever did see nothing. Very well
[unintelligible]. You didn’t know that.
[Interviewer] (1:12:57)
No. Well now, dad ran the restaurant where Woodrow Wilson was at one time.
[Bud Freeman] (1:13:05)
Well, I knew that too, he didn't run it very long. And then he moved across the street when he
sold it. Sold out to Salinger, or Cleverger, moved across, and him and old man Stevens ran
that grocery store now.
[Interviewer] (1:13:22)
Charlie Stevens?
[Bud Freeman] (1:13:23)
Yes.
[Interviewer] (1:13:25)
Ran where the tavern is now?
[Bud Freeman] (1:13:28)
The grocery store. John Corns had chicken dinner upstairs.
[Interviewer] (1:13:36)
How could Chatham keep so many grocery stores in business?
[Bud Freeman] (1:13:46)
Transportation, my lady.
[Interviewer] (1:13:48)
Oh, okay.
[Bud Freeman] (1:13:49)
You couldn't get in your car in 15 minutes, be in Springfield. You know that?
[Interviewer] (1:13:56)
Yeah?
[Bud Freeman] (1:13:58)
He wasn't going to look it all on the ITS.
[Interviewer] (1:14:02)
Well, I guess not.
[Bud Freeman] (1:14:04)
Might, once in a while. But that's...
[Interviewer] (1:14:12)
Do you remember the hard road going through?
[Bud Freeman] (1:14:16)
Yeah. We used to ride—there was a commercial out there, they had those cars that they filled
with sand and cement and so forth, and then they dumped them in a mixer and the mixer went
down the road and they smoothed it out.
[Interviewer] (10:14:33)
That was when the concrete one went through, the first one?
[Bud Freeman] (1:14:38)
We used to ride those cars, and we'd ride them up, we'd go down Bunker’s Hill
[unintelligible]. I'll tell you another thing, on your insurance policies here, in this town.
Insurance companies take in this town like bad took Richmond. On your house here, if you've
got any plaster in your place, you won't have a [....]. Your dad didn't have a [......] walls. This
is a plaster wall. I don't know about—no cracks in any of the houses because they had a mine
down here mine [.....] mine, and Tommy worked for the coal. I said to him one time, “Well,
did they mine all the coal out from under all these houses [....] and everything?” “Hell no,”
he said. I said, “Well, where did they mine?” “Well, they said they didn't come north at all.
They went south of the mine. They went south, and west, and east, and mined all the coal
out.” He said there was not any coal down under Chatham. So they put that $9, $10 a month
or a year on my thing, and I said to that insurance guy, “Take that off of there, I don’t want
it.” “Yeah, but Chatham’ll sink one of these days, you know how it is in Springfield.” I said,
“Springfield’s Springfield.” “Coal was under there, under Chatham.” I said, “There isn't any
coal down under Chatham.” “How do you know?” So now I know. I said, “Take it off there, I
don’t want [....].” “Well, fine, do it.” Said, “Almost everybody in town has it.” “ If everybody
in town has that, there's an insurance company every year that pays $10 off of everybody
here.”
[Speaker 1] (1:16:53)
Well that's good [....].
[Bud Freeman] (1:16:56)
You got it, I’ll bet. On your policy.
[Interviewer] (1:16:59)
I don't know whether I have or not.
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:02)
Well, you don't know much. Don't you look at your policy? Have you ever looked at it?
[Interviewer] 1:17:06)
No I don't, I just pay it and that's all there is to it.
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:09)
Oh, to hell with that! I'd [...] them!
[Speaker 1] (1:17:15)
What about when they put number five in down south, do you suppose they come up here and
mined under?
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:22)
Where?
[Speaker 1] (1:17:22)
Number five mine, you know, was down Irwin's Park?
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:24)
Irwin’s Park? I worked there twelve years.
[Interviewer] (1:17:28)
Did they—
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:28)
Or about ten and a half .
[Interviewer] (1:17:28)
—they didn't come north to mine coal, huh?
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:31)
Huh?
[Interviewer] (1:17:31)
They didn't come north.
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:32)
Yes. They came to—you know where Kerr was down here?
[Interviewer] (1:17:38)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:39)
That's as far north as they came.
[Interviewer] (1:17:40)
Oh, really?
[Bud Freeman] (1:17:43)
Oh, and then they was—then they went west, see, and they went south, clear over to [......]
and the other mine that was down there. and then they went east.
[Speaker 1] (1:17:54)
Oh.
[Interviewer] (1:17:57)
What about Irwin's Park?
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:00)
Yeah, it ran.
[Speaker 1] (1:18:01)
Yeah, he knows a lot about that, don't you? [laughter]
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:09)
It's a dance hall.
[Speaker 1] (1:18:12)
And you could get beer there too, couldn't you?
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:13)
Well, no, not during Prohibition time.
[Speaker 1] (1:18:18)
[unintelligible]
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:19)
No. No, he didn't bootleg. The man Irwin didn't bootleg.
[Speaker 1] (1:18:24)
Didn’t he?
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:25)
But they carried an awful lot of it out there.
[Interviewer] (1:18:28)
People or who?
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:30)
People.
[Speaker 1] (1:18:32)
Bring your own [...].
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:35)
Wouldn’t have to tell them [....], if they wanted to drink you'd go to Auburn, you know, get
about half jagged up and go to Auburn.
[Speaker 1] (1:18:46)
What kind of orchestras did they have there?
[Bud Freeman] (1:18:48)
They had pretty good orchestras. But, at one time here in Chatham, you know, in the hall, I
don't know if you ever went to any of those [......]
[Unknown] (1:18:58)
Do you [....] ballet?
[Speaker 1] (1:18:59)
Yeah.
[Interviewer] (1:19:00)
Oh, yes.
[Bud Freeman] (1:19:01)
Tommy Dorsey.
[Speaker 1] (1:19:02)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:19:04)
Jimmy Dorsey. Ted Weems. All of them. There was some [....] club, you know, big bands
came [....] one time, all of them. I used to like to go out there and see Ted [....] everybody in
[......].
[Unknown] (1:19:42)
Everybody?
[Speaker 1] (1:19:45)
Good old days, weren't they?
[Bud Freeman] (1:19:48)
[unintelligible]
[Interviewer] (1:19:51)
We seemed to enjoy them.
[Bud Freeman] (1:19:52)
The economy is different. You didn't make as much money, but you didn't need as much
money.
[Speaker 1] (1:19:59)
Right.
[Bud Freeman] (1:19:59)
I think it balanced out about even. But, Jim Irwin made a lot of money [....]. Well, Jim Irwin,
you know, he used to rent that [....] and I used to play dog [.....]. He run a tavern, you know.
[Interviewer] (1:20:19)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:20:19)
And—and here comes Jimmy Dorsey and he said, to me, he said, “Hoping I get a drink.” I
said, “What do you want?” [....] Well, I had those things they set down for instructions. Said,
“Not going to make too many trips, you're going to get two a piece if you want them.” I make
one trip, I'd go and get them, bring them over on a tray, and [............]. It was a very important
event they'd get off—they'd get off and dance with some of the people [....].
[Interviewer] (1:21:05)
That I don't remember.
[Bud Freeman] (1:21:06)
Yeah. They'd get off and dance with some of the people [....].
[Interviewer] (1:21:12)
What'd they charge for the dances down at Irwin's Park?
[Bud Freeman] (1:21:17)
Well, at that time they was charging ten cents a dance at the moonlight. And he had all
different kinds, sometimes you'd have ten cents a dance, and have a corner way out [....]. And
sometimes you'd come in and they'd charge you two dollars a dance all in all. at once I used
to go all the dances. Almost all of them.
[Interviewer] (1:21:52)
Do you remember the first car you had?
[Bud Freeman] (1:21:56)
Yeah [...] Ford. The first car that come to this town—first guy that had car was Doc James
Bentman. And there was an old tank on the side. And it was quite [...] it would go over a
bridge 20 miles an hour, chugga chugg chugga. Two cylinders. It was alright. He'd put on one
of those dusters, you know, and put on his goggles, and his cap, get in that car and he thought
it was [...]. And then he'd ride with the fast horse pass him up and leave him in the dust.
“Well, I’m going home.”
[Interviewer] (1:22:52)
Yeah. How many years have you been in Chatham?
[Bud Freeman] (1:22:57)
Well, I lived here all my life until I—I worked in Springfield. Well, I worked in Springfield
[......] five years, or four years. And I—I lived—well it was about 20 years.
[Interviewer] (1:23:28)
Rest the time you've been here?
[Bud Freeman] (1:23:30)
Yeah.
[Speaker 1] (1:23:31)
But you’d back [.....] weren’t you?
[Bud Freeman] (1:23:32)
Oh, yeah. Well, my dad lived here. I'd be out here a couple times a week, and my stepmother,
when she lived here, I would come out a couple times and take them over to [....] see if Jack
[....]. So I was out here a couple times a week.
[Interviewer] (1:24:03)
Are you still working in town?
[Bud Freeman] (1:24:06)
I’m bailman.
[Interviewer] (1:24:07)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:24:08)
And I work when they got a a jury. They don't have any jury this week, so I'm not working.
[Interviewer] (1:24:14)
Oh.
[Bud Freeman] (1:24:15)
Why—that's why my niece is coming down to bring those two Indians. [.....] characters.
[Interviewer] (1:24:24)
And you will take them to see the Lincoln?
[Bud Freeman] (1:24:27)
I'll take them to see the Lincoln. There's one thing that everybody misses. And you people,
you know, [...] have seen it though. But you've never gone into the Supreme Court room.
[Interviewer] (1:24:46)
I've been in there.
[Bud Freeman] (1:24:47)
You’ve been in?
[Interviewer] (1:24:48)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:24:49)
Beautiful on the inside of it.
[Interviewer] (1:24:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:24:52)
And the palace court has got seven different kinds of marble, and the ceiling is—the guy that
painted the ceiling, the old man that was there, Marshall, he's a custodian, too, you see, and
they got his name, this guy didn't come through here, he lived in Nebraska someplace. His
dad painted the mural that's in the top of that in a barn in Chicago.
[Interviewer] (1:25:32)
Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (1:25:33)
This fellow wanted to see it. He said, “I saw my dad make that.”
[Interviewer] (1:25:38)
Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (1:25:39)
But he said, “I’ve never seen it in action.”
[Interviewer] (1:25:41)
Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (1:25:42)
“[........] to see it.” The old gal with the scales, you know, that was [....] the ceiling. And then
you've got murals all around the side, too. It's pretty. That's the appellate court.
[Interviewer] (1:26:05)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:26:06)
And across the hall is the Supreme Court, and that's got room for all the judges up there on
[....]. See they don't—appellate court, they usually have—usually four judges [......]. We used
to open up the corridor.
[Interviewer] (1:26:32)
Oh, you did?
[Bud Freeman] (1:26:33)
Yeah, and then they got a [....] And then they send him over there and he thought he had to go
in there and open it up too [....]. He was the last guy I hired. Nobody could explain that to
him, he said, “It's a liberal country and they ought to divide everything amongst all the
workers and everything.” I said, “You ought to live in Russia. Russia's supposed to be a
socialist country.” [unintelligible]
[Interviewer] (1:27:17)
Hm.
[Bud Freeman] (1:27:19)
They had the marshal. The Supreme Court—the Supreme Court always opened the marshal
opened that, but we opened [...]. But that's an interesting building, you know. A lot of those
lobbyists, they want to put the ball up in there.
[Interviewer] (1:27:45)
Mm-hm.
[Bud Freeman] (1:27:47)
Lobbyists and senators and representatives from up north want to put the ball [....] and sell
that ground to a outfit to put up a big motel.
[Speaker 1] (1:28:06)
Scullys?
[Bud Freeman] (1:28:09)
No, not Scullys. Scully don't—he don't do that kind of stuff. He’ll [....].
[Interviewer] (1:28:16)
The Ramada?
[Bud Freeman] (1:28:18)
Ramada [....]. Selany.
[Interviewer] (1:28:21)
The Hilton? The Hilton?
[Bud Freeman] (1:28:24)
Selany.
[Interviewer] (1:28:25)
Selany.
[Bud Freeman] (1:28:27)
It [...]. It was a chance. I wouldn't have got it if I were [....]. I understand this place down here
where [....]. They come way down. [......] damn [....]. And that's a block from here. It's not
quite a half block [....]. There one little corner.
[Interviewer] (1:29:02)
The Candiota?
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:04)
The Candiota.
[Interviewer] (1:29:05)
They sold it?
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:06)
No, they didn't sell it.
[Interviewer] (1:29:07)
Oh.
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:08)
[unintelligible]
[Interviewer] (1:29:09)
Oh yeah, I know there's a for sale sign on it.
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:13)
I understand they come down an awful lot.
[Interviewer] (1:29:16)
Mm.
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:17)
The mafia wants their money out of it.
[Interviewer] (1:29:19)
Oh. Well, really, business property don't go too good here in Chatham anymore.
[Speaker 1] (1:29:36)
Too close to Charlottesville?
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:38)
Chatham is a motel town.
[Speaker 1] (1:29:42)
Bedroom community, isn't it?
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:47)
They buy everything in Springfield.
[Speaker 1] (1:29:49)
Yeah.
[Interviewer] (1:29:51)
That’s just about the truth.
[Bud Freeman] (1:29:54)
If you want to [....] way up, a few rounds of the [.....]. That's all.
[Interviewer] (1:30:06)
Yep, that's right.
[Bud Freeman] (1:30:10)
Did your dad ever get all the money he needed to do that?
[Unknown] (1:30:12)
[....] Uh-uh.
[Interviewer] (1:30:15)
I got his ledger upstairs.
[Bud Freeman] (1:30:20)
You're probably one of only seven people this [....]..
[Interviewer] (1:30:24)
Yeah? [laughter] Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:30:37
About the maddest I ever saw Tommy. [....]
[Interviewer] (1:30:41)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:30:44)
Oh. Telephone company. It's across the park here [......].
[Interviewer] (1:30:53)
Yeah.
[Bud Freeman] (1:30:55)
And Larry [....]'s wife.
[Interviewer] (1:30:58)
Yeah, Lorena.
[Bud Freeman] (1:30:59)
Lorena. And, uh, [....] journal, [....]. And, uh, I don't know, somehow Tommy replaced the
telephone bill.
[Speaker 1] (1:31:17)
[unintelligible]
[Bud Freeman] (1:31:22)
Didn't have a phone in the house. Larry's phone. Tiny gal, said to her, “Go across the street
and see if the phone's on over at Dr. Adams.” I said, “Do you pay your telephone bill?”
“Yeah, I do.” Fine. If you went to that [.....] me, pull that thing down, you know.
[unintelligible]. Across the park he went [....]. Six foot four, tall, long legs. Went across there.
I said, “Boy, I don't know why you had to take me there.” I guess he went in there and he
said, “Lorraine? Where's Steven?” He was in the back of the house. He didn't want to be a
disturbance [...]. He said, “I'll disturb you if you want, Tommy.” “Steven, did you cut my
telephone off?” Said, “Well, Tommy, I cut a lot of them off, [...] they weren't paying the bill.”
He said, “Why don't you just take those bills?” “'ll figure it out there. You make a check out
for the difference and cut and put my phone up now. I don't care whether you ever buy
another thing.”
[Interviewer] (1:33:05)
That's just the way it [...], too.
[Bud Freeman] (1:33:09)
Damn right, that's the way it [....]. “I don't care, you stay out of there. I don't want you in
here.” Sent the kids up. [......] I said, “Why in the hell didn't you give me a phone call?”
“Well,” he said, “I got tired of calling.” He said, “You never called me before, and that's the
first time I've ever called.” [....] Oh, Jesus. I poured some oil in the fire. [......] knocked out.
[Interviewer] (1:33:47)
You helped it out, huh?
[Bud Freeman] (1:33:49)
Sure, I [....]. I was a bigger agitator than your dad.
[Interviewer] (1:33:57)
You haven't changed any, have you?
[Bud Freeman] (1:33:58)
Not much.
[Interviewer] (1:34:00)
That's what I thought. [laughter]