Oral History - George Roberts 11-15-1990

Tape 04 George Roberts 11-15-1990

[Unknown] (0:00)

At the Chatham Community Center, our guest tonight is George Roberts. This is the Chatham History Club. On November the 15th, 1990.

[Interviewer] (0:11)

Have you with us tonight, and I'd like for you to tell us about your folks coming over from England. Didn't they do that?

[George Roberts] (0:24)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (0:24)

Okay, and what can you tell us about that?

[George Roberts] (0:27)

Well, they moved to Canada, let's see. They left Canada in 1918 and moved to Chatham. Now...

[Interviewer] (0:41)

Why did they leave Canada?

[George Roberts] (0:43)

Too cold.

[Interviewer] (0:45)

Oh, okay.

[George Roberts] (0:47)

My dad was a coal miner, just like yours. And he was up at Sydney Mine, Nova Scotia.

[Interviewer] (0:56)

There they are. 

[Unknown] (0:56)

There they are.  [applause, laughter]

[Unknown] (1:00)

Yes, we know we're a little late.

[Unknown] (1:03)

All right.

[George Roberts] (1:04)

Mr. Pat.

[Interviewer] (1:06)

I'm sure you know him. 

[Unknown] (1:07)

My nephew had us out to dinner. 

[Interviewer] (1:10)
Oh, that was nice of him.

[Unknown] (1:11)

You can just blame it all on him. [laughter]

[George Roberts] (1:14)

Well, I waited for him to call me, but he didn't. [laughter]

[Unknown] (1:18)

Well, maybe you'll do that next time.

[George Roberts] (1:20)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:21)

Hi, everybody.

[Interviewer] (1:24)

You know George, I'm sure. 

[Unknown] (1:25)

Sure.

[Interviewer] (1:26)

Okay.

[George Roberts] (1:27)

Hi [unintelligible]

[Unknown] (1:28)

He may not remember me, but I remember him.

[George Roberts] (1:30)

Oh, I remember you. And they left there on account of the cold. It was just too cold. Every year, when it would come winter, my dad would say, “I'm getting out of this country,” and then come spring, it'll be so beautiful. And they stuck it out, I think, about six, seven years. Now, prior to that, they come from England.

[Interviewer] (1:56)

Do you know anything about their trip from England?

[George Roberts] (1:58)

No.

[Interviewer] (1:59)

No?

[George Roberts] (2:00)

Oh, I wasn't around then.

[Interviewer] (2:02)

Well, I know you weren't, but I thought maybe they would have told you something. 

[George Roberts] (2:06)

Well, matter of fact, I wasn't curious, never asked them, I guess. My father was born in Renishaw, Derbyshire. My mother was born in Ellastone, North Staffordshire. And my brother, well, I was over there for a long time during World War II. But a few years ago, when my other brother was working for United Airlines, he had to go there to Croydon, which is outside of London, for about six months while they were building a 747 simulator to check it out before they shipped it to this country. And he'd done a lot of research over there, but years and years had gone by, and nobody had even remembered my folks. I mean, everybody was dead that knew them, see. I think my father had had two brothers, they were both killed in World War I, and other than that, why. And my mother, her mother died when she was just a baby, and she was raised by an aunt.

[Interviewer] (3:21)

How did they pick Chatham?

[George Roberts] (3:24)

Well, they really didn't pick Chatham at first. They was going to Wyoming, around Rock Springs. And it was in September, and they was sitting there in the park, and he'd already had a job at a mine there, and there was a flurry of snow started to come down. And Dad said, “that's enough.” He said, “we're going somewhere where it's warmer.” He said, “I just come from a country where flurries of snow fall in September.” He said, “I don't want no more of it.” So he intentionally was going to go to Auburn, which he did come here and work at number one, which was halfway between Barrick Hill, Merrill Park. Now, my oldest brother, he was born in England, and my two sisters, they were born in Canada. And Fred and I were born here. Strange as it may seem, I was born in a little house right across the street where I live now.

[Interviewer] (4:38)

You were?

[George Roberts] (4:39)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (4:40)

Oh, I just supposed you were down at the [...] place, I call it.

[George Roberts] (4:46)

There used to be a little stucco house where those apartments were built. They lived there. Now, when my folks first come this town, which was 1918, probably a block down the street from where I live was a log cabin with a colored family lived.

[Interviewer] (5:08)

What was their name?

[George Roberts] (5:09)

Their name were Yokums. 

[Unknown] (5:11)

I remember Yokums. 

[George Roberts] (5:13)

There was a log cabin built there where Charlie Willem had a trailer, which burnt down. Now, Frank Farley told me one time that there was a colored slave buried down here in the cemetery, and he told me about the location. I forgot where it was.

[Interviewer] (5:36)

It's marked, and that stone is just as good as can be.

[George Roberts] (5:39)

Is it?

[Interviewer] (5:39)

Yeah. It's on the historical tour.

[George Roberts] (5:42)

What area of the cemetery is it in?

[Interviewer] (5:45)

Down in the southwest.

[George Roberts] (5:48)

Southwest part?

[Interviewer] (5:49)

Almost across from Eugenia Fairweather's. It's right in that one corner.

[George Roberts] (5:54)

In that area.

[Unknown] (5:56)

Was that last name Yokum? The colored man buried?

[Unknown] (5:59)

No, no, no. 

[George Roberts] (6:00)

No, I don't know what his name was.

[Unknown] (6:04)

Was it Lightfoot or something like that? Light? Light?

[Unknown] (6:10)

Lightfoot don't sound right.

[Unknown] (6:12)

Lighthouse?

[Unknown] (6:13)

No. [unintelligible]

[Unknown] (6:18)

[......] Caldwell.

[Interviewer] (6:21)

And it says on there, an inmate of the Caldwell family from birth to death.

[George Roberts] (6:27)

Is that right? 

[Interviewer] (6:28)

Yes.

[George Roberts] (6:28)

Well, work for the Caldwells out of here, Norm?

[Unknown] (6:31)

[unintelligible]

[Interviewer] (6:34)

And it was surprising to me that the stone is so perfect. 

[Unknown] (6:40)

Because it is. If Caldwell put it up, it would be great.

[Interviewer] (6:43)

Yeah, he probably got the best.

[George Roberts] (6:47)

Well, now, what ever happened to the cornerstone of the Caldwell building here at the grade school after it burned?

[Interviewer] (6:53)

I don't think anybody knows, do they?

[George Roberts] (6:55)

See, there is a marble cornerstone that's set on the northeast corner of that school. There was also a bronze plaque at the front entrance commemorating Roy Sumter and some other soldier that was killed in World War I. There was a bronze plaque right to the left of the entrance door to that school. Because I can remember Roy Sumter's name, and I can't remember the other guy. See, now, that bronze plaque wouldn't have been destroyed in that fire because that building left a shell.

[Interviewer] (7:33)

Yeah.

[George Roberts] (7:34)

The shell was intact and the cornerstone was intact. And the cornerstone, if I recall, was black marble. Seems to me, like.

[Interviewer] (7:43)

I remember it, but I don't know what it was. Someone said that it was put up, but nobody can find anything about it.

[George Roberts] (7:56)

See, that whole school was financed by that [......], see. And that was part of the stipulation when they financed their building. The cornerstone was put in there.

[Interviewer] (8:08)

Yeah, it shows in the pictures.

[George Roberts] (8:14)

Well, I know I took some pictures of it after the fire, and I know that the whole building was intact. The brick part was just a shell, but.

[Interviewer] (8:30)

So, your dad was always a coal miner.

[George Roberts] (8:33)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (8:34)

And how many mines did he work at?

[George Roberts] (8:37)

Well, he worked at number one down there at Panther Creek at [........]. And then he worked at the same one I worked at for a while, number five up at Springfield.

[Interviewer] (8:58)

How long were your folks gone when they left here that time? 

[George Roberts] (9:02)

Pardon?

[Unknown] (9:02)

How long were your folks gone when they left here to go back to England that time before they came back? Do you remember?

[George Roberts] (9:10)

Well, if they went back to England, it was just for a short trip.

[Unknown] (9:14)

Because when they sold out, I bought the sewing machine from them.

[George Roberts] (9:18)

I don’t ever recall them selling out from Chatham. You must have them mixed with someone else.

[Unknown] (9:26)

[unintelligible]

[George Roberts] (9:27)

Huh?

[Unknown] (9:27)

When they went back to England?

[George Roberts] (9:30)

They never went back. Not once they got to Chatham, I don't think they ever went back to England. I think they might have went back once when they was in Canada, but not from Chatham.

[Interviewer] (9:44)

Well my old original sewing machine came from down there, old Singer sewing machine.

[George Roberts] (9:52)

No. No, I have no knowledge of them ever leaving.

[Unknown] (9:59)

[......] by check?

[Unknown] (10:01)

No, I didn't have a check at that time. 

[Unknown] (10:03)

I would expect you to have had a record. 

[Unknown] (10:05)

I didn't have a check at that time.

[Unknown] (10:06)

Nobody did.

[George Roberts] (10:10)

Lucky if you had any money.

[Unknown] (10:13)

Merle and I had only been married a very short time when that happened, too.

[Interviewer] (10:19)

When would that have been? When were you married? 

[Unknown] (10:24)

1919.

[Interviewer] (10:24)

1919.

[George Roberts] (10:26)

The only place that my folks, like I say, I was born in that little stucco house, and they also lived in that house where Joe Day lived. They lived there for a while. 

[Interviewer] (10:24)

Now, what year were you born?

[George Robets] (10:25)

1923.

[Interviewer] (10:46)

Twenty-three.

[George Roberts] (10:49)

Don't ask me a question like [....]

[Interviewer] (10:51)

What date?

[George Roberts] (10:52)

Pardon?

[Unknown] (10:55)

What date in 1923?

[George Roberts] (10:57)

September the 13th.

[Unknown] (10:59)

God, we're almost twins. [laughter]

[Unknown] (11:02)

September the 18th, 1923.

[George Roberts] (11:06)

I was born on my oldest brother's 13th birthday, and he was born on 13th.

[Unknown] (11:12)

I was born on my great-grandfather's birthday.

[Unknown] (11:15)

Bill was your oldest brother.

[George Roberts] (11:16)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (11:17)

I was born on my birthday.

[Unknown] (11:19)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (11:21)

Bill at one time ran a service station or a garage or something. 

[George Roberts] (11:30)

Yeah, we had a—

[Unknown] (11:31)

Something's happening.

[Unknown] (11:32)

No, it isn't. 

[Unknown] (11:33)

Okay. [laughter]

[George Roberts (11:37)

He and I had a filling station down here across from where the Phillips station was.

[Interviewer] (11:41)

You were in with him?

[George Roberts] (11:42)

Yeah. We had a sign shop and filling station, sure. And we closed it up during World War II when we both went into the military.

[Unknown] (11:52)

Was this Herschel Reynolds' father? He had a garage down in there. That wasn't where he had his garage.

[George Roberts] (11:56)

No, Herschel Reynolds was right over here in the canneries at one time, wasn't he?

[Unknown] (12:00)

Yeah, he worked over there. But then he ran a garage down on the street right over there where the hard road is, down there on the east side of the street.

[George Roberts] (12:09)

Joe, I tell you, Joe Evoy ran that filling station there ahead of us. 

[Unknown] (12:15)

Well, this is just a garage. 

[George Roberts] (12:16)

Joe that worked at Butcher Shop?

[Unknown] (12:19)

Yeah.

[George Roberts] (12:20)

He ran that filling station.

[Interviewer] (12:24)

Well, what do you remember about going to school in Chatham?

[George Roberts] (12:29)

Everything. [laughter]

[Unknown] (12:30)

How much do you want to tell us, though? 

[George Roberts1] (12:33)

Well, I wouldn't tell you all that. [laughter]

[Interviewer] (12:36)

Why not? That'd be interesting.

[George Roberts] (12:40)

No, I took my first two years in the old portable buildings that were back in this building here, in the old wood building. Velma McGinnis was my first grade teacher. And Mrs. Lewis was the second grade teacher. Then when we went over to the third grade, Mrs. Hall.

[Interviewer] (13:07)

Were you in one of her famous marching?

[George Roberts] (13:12)

That's right. Every morning before school started, she would play the Stars and Stripes Forever, and you would pick out a flag and march around the room. She's a fine old lady.

[Interviewer] (13:28)

Well, what do you remember about the politics of Chatham?

[George Roberts] (13:33)

Not too much. 

[Unknown] (13:35)

[unintelligible]

[George Roberts] (13:36) 

Probably. [laughter] Jim Dillman don't know how to get out of there. He stayed there practically all his life as a mayor. He used to have some hot races though, didn't he? Yeah. One time it just about one vote. Mr. Jones just lacked one vote to catch anyone as a mayor.

[Interviewer] (13:53)

Was that the time they had the parade?

[George Roberts] (13:56)

And he ran in and said, “Kiss me, Carrie, I’ve been elected.”

[Interviewer] (14:00)

He was known for that remark. Well, how have you seen Chatham change?

[George Roberts] (14:11)

In what way?

[Interviewer] (14:13)

Every way.

[George Roberts] (14:15)

Well, I've seen it grow and I've seen taxes go up. [laughter]

[Unknown] (14:22)

Mainly that.

[George Roberts] (14:26)

I can't say it's went for the better as far as I'm concerned. I like small towns. The trouble with Chatham today, you have too many people that move in from Springfield, that moved out of the city and trying to instigate the same rules that they got away from.

[Unknown] (14:48)

But they still go back to Springfield and buy everything they want.

[George Roberts] (14:54)

Well, I mean, they leave a big town, but then they come to a small town, and the first thing you know, they want to instill all the regulations and the rules that they just got away from.

[Unknown] (15:06)

But they still go back to Springfield and buy everything they want. 

[George Roberts] (15:08)

Sure.

[Interviewer] (15:09)

So nothing...

[George Roberts] (15:12)

Well, a small town like this, this close to Springfield, can never survive as far as business. It's impossible.

[Unknown] (15:21)

[unintelligible]

[Interviewer] (15:25)

You were on the school board too, weren't you?

[George Roberts] (15:28)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (15:29)

For how many years? 

[George Roberts] (15:31)

Two terms. I served on the school board when they was consolidating the district. You know, when I first went on the board, New City and Crow's Mill were separate schools before the consolidation to bring them all into one.

[Interviewer] (15:51)

Was that a big fight, or was everybody congenial about it or what?

[George Roberts] (15:58)

Oh, no, I don't think it was a big fight. The biggest deal was to get the people in the community educated to swing a bond issue to build a new high school. And I think today this, probably this community has the best education system there is around, right?

[Interviewer] (16:19)

Well, it still has problems. 

[George Roberts] (16:21)

Well, any time you have a group of people, you have problems. But I mean, we don't have near the problems in a school system. Just—we don't even have a fraction of the problems they have in cities. When you take New York, Chicago, and all kinds of them, they have to have armed guards in the hallways all day long. How are you going to educate kids when they're under armed guard, just to protect them?

[Interviewer] (16:55)

Do you remember the hard road going through?

[George Roberts] (16:58)

Sure do. I've got a lot of pictures of it, of them laying brick.

[Interviewer] (17:04)

I've got a couple.

[George Roberts] (17:05)

Matter of fact, I've got a picture of this guy here—

[Unknown] (17:08)

Laying brick.

[George Roberts] (17:09)

No, he wasn't, he was driving a grader. He was driving a grader.

[Unknown] (17:14)

He had a lofty post. Like, he'd go from six to noon, and I'd go from noon to six.

[George Roberts] (17:18)

That’s right, I've got a picture of him sitting on a road grader. Leveling out the base for the bricks. There was an Indian that laid bricks. Big six-foot tall Indian. Wore two pieces of inner tube on his hand so he wouldn't wear his fingers out laying them bricks. Fastest guy you've ever seen putting bricks down.

[Interviewer] (17:39)

Where did he come from?

[George Roberts] (17:40)

Oh, I have no idea. Rent him off a reservation. [laughter] 

[Unknown] (17.44)

He heard about Chatham? [laughter] Yeah.

[Unknown] (17:46)

He must have been out of a job. 

[George Roberts] (17:51)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's hard to believe that this road that whips past the Methodist church and on down used to be the main road through here too.

[Interviewer] (18:05)

Oh yeah, I remember that.

[Unknown] (18:07)

Before that.

[Interviewer] (18:11)

You know, the people would sometimes stop in Chatham for the night? You know, we had motels, or they called them cabins.

[George Roberts] (18:22)

Yeah, Mrs. Ward down there across, and then the Bluebird cabin.

[Interviewer] (18:28)

Well, you could tell us a little bit about the Bluebird cabin.

[Unknown] (18:31)

Yeah, they [....] had the best barbecue in the whole country. 

[George Roberts] (18:35)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (18:36)

It was good.

[Interviewer] (18:38)

[...] that house, that Ellen lived in, was one of the Bluebirds.

[George Roberts] (18:43)

Well, it was part of it, yeah. Yeah, as a matter of fact, that Rogers was connected with Sam Fitch some way. I don't know. Because I bought a piece of property, and it was signed by Sam Fitch and a Rogers, and I had to track them girls down. There was one of them named Irene, and the other one was Geraldine, and they lived in Arkansas. And I'll tell you, they have some relation to Mickey June Huffsadler, Huffs, some relation to his, because he got me their address so that I could get them to sign a paper.

[Interviewer] (19:29)

I know they used to visit the Creaseys.

[George Roberts] (19:34)

Well, the Rogers was some relation to the Huffstadlers some way. I don't know. Do you?

[Unknown] (19:44)

Mrs. Huffstadler.

[Interviewer] (19:50)

Yeah, they were sisters. 

[George Roberts] (19:51)

Mrs. Huffstadler? 

[Unknown] (19:53)

And Mrs. Rogers. 

[George Roberts] (19:55)

Were sisters? Well, I know there's some relation there somewhere because...

[Unknown] (20:01)

I knew there were two, but I could just get it figured out.

[Unknown] (20:03)

Yeah, yeah. 

[George Roberts] (20:04)

Yeah. I had them connected, I couldn't remember what part of the family, but they were sisters. I remember that now. 

[Unknown] (20:08)

They were sisters.

[Unknown] (20:11)

So a group went down there first, down the left of here, and then they went on. Irene was the oldest girl, and Geraldine was the youngest. 

[George Roberts] (20:19)

Well, they was living in Arkansas the last time.

[Interviewer] (20:25)

I thought I heard where one of them died, and I can't even remember which one it was.

[George Roberts] (20:30)

I don't know. Well, the oldest one was Irene, and she'd probably been about your age. 

[Interviewer] (20:40)

She's a little older than me.

[George Roberts] (20:41)

About 110? 

[Interviewer] (20:43)

Yeah. [laughter] I think she was in the class with Virginia Barnes.

[George Roberts] (20:49)

Might have been, yeah.

[Interviewer] (20:51)

And I think Geraldine was a year younger than I was.

[Unknown] (20:57)

She was two years younger than Irene was.

[Interviewer] (21:00)

I don't know.

[Unknown] (21:01)

I thought she was two years younger. I know there's more than one year.

[George Roberts] (21:04)

All right. Now, they was some relation, oh, Charlie Beard [...], how was that?

[Unknown] (21:09)

I couldn't tell you that.

[Unknown] (21:12)

Oh, that was through their mother.

[Interviewer] (21:16)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (21:17)

Goodness.

[Interviewer] (21:21)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (21:23)

Haven’t thought about them in 50 years.

[Unknown] (21:25)

You know, I always thought Charlie Beard was a colored fellow. 

[Unknown] (21:29)

[laughter] Oh [...] even darker than that.

[George Roberts] (21:32)

Well, he was just out in the weather all the time. 

[Unknown] (21:34)

Well, that's more than him. 

[Unknown] (21:35)

But that was Helen Carey's father, wasn't it?

[George Roberts] (21:41)

No, no.

[Unknown] (21:43)

That was her?

[George Roberts] (21:44)

No, Charlie Beard owned a farm there. 

[Unknown] (21:45)

Oh, that's true. 

[George Roberts] (21:46)

And he lived down there where Mrs. Harbor lived. 

[Unknown] (21:51)

Well, that's the only way to [...] if her father lived down south. 

[George Roberts] (21:55)

Yeah, he was a cop in Auburn for years and years, Helen Carey's father. 

[Unknown] (21:59)

Yeah, that's when I was [....]. He was darker than that. 

[George Roberts] (22:03)

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown] (22:03)

Was his name Charlie too?

[Unknown] (22:05)

George Beard.

[Interviewer] (22:06)

George, that's it. Helen Carey's father was George Beard. 

[George Roberts] (22:12)

They might have been some relation.

[Unknown] (22:20)

Well, I think that the Ruth, Rogers' wife, she's got her.

[Unknown] (22:31)

Um, Beard, Charlie Beard. 

[Interviewer] (22:33)

I think so. 

[Unknown] (22:34)

I think so, too.

[Unknown] (22:36)

Well, that wasn’t—

[Unknown] (22:36)

But I don't remember her name. I can see that...

[Unknown] (22:44)

We always call her Ma—Ma Rogers when she runs that restaurant. She has a barbecue over there, Ma Rogers’ Barbecues.

[Interviewer] (22:54)

What, did they have plate lunches or?

[Unknown] (22:57)

No, they just sold barbecues. She'd get that barbecue real good. Then she had this, all of this, soft like and she'd take a fork and she'd get that top of your bun down there and just about, oh, make it four minutes and lay it on there. It'd be real hot, man, it was really...

[George Roberts] (23:13)

Today, your stomach wouldn't even handle that. 

[Unknown] (23:15)

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown] (23:17)

That man has never taken an Alka-Seltzer or a Rolaid in his whole life.

[George Roberts] (23:22)

Is that right? 

[Unknown] (23:23)

They don't give you [....] an organ [...].

[Unknown] (213:24)

Never. He has never had an antiacid of any kind for his stomach.

[George Roberts] (23:32)

It’s probably lined with cast iron.

[Unknown] (23:33)

I swear he could eat anything.

[Unknown] (23:36)

Don't go too far on it.

[Unknown] (23:38)

And it does nothing. Well, you've never had any—

[Unknown] (23:41)

No, I've never had no problem.

[Unknown] (23:42)

The only trouble he's ever had was he had a gallbladder attack.

[Unknown] (23:46)

One gallbladder attack, had to take him to the hospital and they gave him [...], told me to give him [...], and a half hour I had him back in the hospital. Took him eight day to decide it was the gallbladder, and then they operated on him. But he's never had an antiacid other than that since we've been married. Not a Rolaid or—

[Unknown] (24:07)

We've been married 90 years, then, right?

[Unknown] (24:09)

A hundred to 90. [laughter]

[Unknown] (24:14)

[unintelligible]

[Unknown] (24:16)

Oh, I don't know, I just thought you had your 50th coming up soon. 

[Unknown] (24:19)

It was more that way, wasn't we? I remember one time when Bill had an old touring car and we were going to bring Bill and he ran out of gas or something, It wouldn't work up there. And Glenn Murray had a glance, said, “I'll just push it.” Bill always drove 35, 30, 35 miles an hour. Glenn put it in 55 and [...] man, when he got down there, Bill was ready to fight, I'll tell you. He was wild. He was really mad at Glenn.

[George Roberts] (24:47)

You know what I remember about that touring car? It had pockets in the door.

[Unknown] (24:51)

Yup, uh-huh.

[George Roberts] (24:53)

I was sitting in there one day, just a little kid, and I found a Rocky Ford cigar in that pocket. I fired it up and was holding on to that steering wheel and making believe I was heading down the road to Chicago or somewhere and got so sick, pretty soon I couldn't hold on to the grass. [laughter]

[Unknown] (25:12)

That'd be a tobacco [...] 

[George Roberts] (25:14)

Boy, that's my memories of that touring car.

[Unknown] (25:17)

They ought to make—

[Unknown] (25:27)

My uncle—

[Unknown] (25:18)

—cigarettes like that today, that make everybody sick.

[Unknown] (25:21)

My grandpa McGuire—

[George Roberts] (25:22)

This was a cigar.

[Unknown] (25:23)

—sent Don and I up to get a plug of horseshoe in the back, you know, over there where the tavern is now. And I took a bite and Don took a bite right there to the well. I didn't even make it across the park, I was so sick, man. That was about an hour and a half or two hours before I was able to get the [....] and go home.

[Interviewer] (25:44)

Well, did it cure you? 

[Unknown] (25:45)

I never chewed since then. Never did.

[Interviewer] (25:47)

Well, did it cure you?

[George Roberts] (25:49)

What, of smoking?

[Interviewer] (25:50)

Uh-huh, the cigar?

[George Roberts] (25:51)

No, it took a long time. I hadn't smoked for 27 years, but, I mean, that didn't cure me. I'd been sick on every form of tobacco there was and it didn't break me into habit. I mean, I still smoke and pill. About 27 years ago, I had no sense of it.

[Interviewer] (26:09)

Well, that was before they told you to quit anyway.

[George Roberts] (26:12)

No, I'll tell you what made me quit. I was sitting reading the Reader's Digest one night and the Royal Bureau of Medicine in England had run a test on tobacco and their conclusion was the same as what it is today and I thought, well, if it's that way, I'm going to quit. And I did.

[Interviewer] (26:30)

Just like that?

[George Roberts] (26:31)

Yeah, I did. Well, I smoked a pipe for a while after that, and I hated to quit smoking a pipe worse than anything because I had it stuck in my mouth all the time even when it wasn't lit. But I finally quit the whole works. Smartest move I ever made.

[Interviewer] (26:52)

How did you get into the sign business?

[George Roberts] (26:56)

Well, Bill was a sign painter.

[Interviewer] (26:58)

Well, how'd he get into it?

[George Roberts] (27:00)

He just taught himself.

[Interviewer] (27:01)

He did? 

[George Roberts] (27:03) 

Yep.

[Unknown] (27:05)

Bill was one of my closest friends back in those days.

[Unknown] (27:08)

In those days? 

[Unknown] (27:09)

Yep.

[Interviewer] (27:10)

Well, what escapades did you get into?

[Unknown] (27:13)

I'm not going to say. 

[George Roberts] (27:14)

That's right. [laughter] That stuff was all top secret. [laughter]

[Unknown] (27:21)

I said too much the first night I was here.

[Unknown] (27:24)

And he didn't know she had that on? [laughter] He didn't know she had the tape recorder on, and I said to him, “shut up, she's got a tape recorder on.” But he'd already told you tales out of school by that time. 

[Interviewer] (27:38)

Well, we need those things recorded, though, so that they'll know that we weren't perfect back in those days.

[Unknown] (27:45)

I disagree.

[Unknown] (27:46)

Yeah, but I'll tell you, Opal, you waited too long.

[Unknown] (27:49)

If I had just thought, though, tonight.

[George Roberts] (27:51)

You should have gotten that tape recorder going, on guys like old Dr. Southwick.

[Interviewer] (27:56)

Didn't have them back then, did they?

[George Roberts] (27:58)

Dr. Bradley. When all these men were alive that knew the history of this town.

[Interviewer] (28:03)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (28:03)

Well—

[Interviewer] (28:03) 

We should have gotten Frank Farley. 

[Unknown] (28:05)

—[....] wasn't out of diapers yet. He wasn't out of diapers yet, though, while those guys were gone.

[George Roberts] (28:10)

Oh, yes, you were.

[Interviewer] (28:12)

I remember—

[Unknown] (28:12)

We should have called both of them 

[Unknown] (28:15)

My aunt—

[George Roberts] (28:15)

Well, old Dr. Bradley brought me into this world.

[Unknown] (28:16)

And I would have gone and got her— 

[Unknown] (28:18)

[...] Dr. Primm— 

[Unknown] (28;19)

—but she lives way out [....] in Westchester, so not in Westchester—

[Unknown] (28:24)

I was born in Pawnee.

[Unknown] (28:25)

—Sherwood.

[Unknown] (28:25)

Been there two years before you came.

[Unknown] (28:27)

Way at the last hill. And it was too far to go.

[George Roberts] (28:30)

I'll tell you, Dr. Southwick was probably the farthest impression of a doctor that you ever seen, if you didn't know he was a doctor.

[Unknown] (28:38)

Who's that?

[George Roberts] (28:39)

Dr. Southwick.

[Unknown] (28:40)

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown] (28:41)

He was pretty close to Dr. Church. 

[George Roberts] (28:42)

And he was a very knowledgeable doctor for a doctor his day, I'll tell you. But he wore an old hat. He had an old milk cow, you know. And that hat was matted cow hair where he leaned it up against that cow while he milked. I can still see him walking down the street. What was that old guy that worked over there? Joe Wynn.

[Interviewer] (29:05)

Joe Wynn.

[George Roberts] (29:06)

Worked there as a...

[Interviewer] (29:08)

Oh, is that what he did? I know he mowed my grandmother's yard, and we used to tease her about Joe Wynn.

[George Roberts] (29:15)

Joe Wynn lived in that little building that George Southwick took over as a casket storage place in later years. And Joe Wynn just lived there as the maintenance man. I never did know the history of him, but he was there as long as I ever knew.

[Interviewer] (29:36)

Did you remember the Smith girls?

[George Roberts] (29:38)

Sure, that worked in the post office? Well, they lived right over here.

[Unknown] (29:45)

In the house that burned down.

[George Roberts] (29:46)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (29:47)

Well, she played the piano at the Baptist church there. You couldn't have no flowers sitting on it, because a lot of people pound that old piano just rocked like that. Alice did the cooking and the housekeeping. And Lisa, she worked in the post office, and.. 

[Unknown] (30:00)

Lou Ellen? 

[Unknown] (30:01)

Lou Ellen. She worked the bank. 

[Unknown] (30:05)

No.

[Unknown] (30:06)

No, just the other way around there. Just the other way around there, yeah.

[George Roberts] (30:09)

Now, when my folks first come to this town, you could rent a horse, a buggy if you wanted, right down here where the municipal building is. See, the livery stable there.

[Interviewer] (30:23)

Who ran the livery stable?

[George Roberts] (30:26)

I don't remember. 

[Unknown] (30:27)

[...] heard about it for a while.

[Unknown] (30:29)

Frank Hirschman. Frank Hirschman.

[George Roberts] (30:32)

Hirschman?

[Unknown] (30:34)

There was also a livery stable over there where the post office lived at about the time, too. Cliff Miller ran that one. 

[Unknown] (30:43)

Who?

[Unknown] (30:44)

Cliff Miller.

[Unknown] (30:45)

Oh, Cliff Miller, okay.

[George Roberts] (30:46)

Now, this inter-urban that comes through town, my mother told me that you could get on that thing and you could ride out to Lick Creek if you wanted to go fishing and picnicking, they'd let you off there.

[Unknown] (30:59)

Sure.

[George Roberts] (31:00)

And pick you up again in the evening, just flag them down.

[Unknown] (31:04)

I could ride in. Frank [....] lived down here. They'd stop around down here at the crossing, let me off, or if I wanted to get on at this stop all I had to do was [....] and they’d pick me up, too.

[George Roberts] (31:13)

Well, that run every hour, approximately. 

[Unknown] (30:15)

Both directions.

[George Roberts] (30:16)

You know, as strange as it may seem, during World War II when I went in the Air Force, I rode that thing all the way from Peoria down to Scott Field at Belleville. I didn't realize it went that far.

[Unknown] (31:26)

Sure.

[Unknown] (31:27)

It goes up there at [unintelligible] 

[George Roberts] (31:32)

Yes, it went all the way to Belleville.

[Unknown] (31:34)

[unintelligible]

[Unknown] (31:37)

Well, I’m gonna tell you something, that in inter-urban was the most scary thing there ever was.

[Unknown] (31:42)

You could ride into Springfield and back. Return for 30 cents.

[Interviewer] (31:44)

For 30 cents. I've got a ticket out of the CNA, but I don't have anything.

[Unknown] (31:51)

See, I worked for the terminal for a long time.

[Interviewer] (31:54)

Yeah. Yeah, you sold tickets. Okay, but when you were flagging it down, they didn't have a ticket place. When you flagged it down, they didn't sell tickets anyplace.

[Unknown] (32:08)

No, you could go out here at any of these crossings and flag it down, and they'd stop.

[Interviewer] (32:15)

And take your money? 

[Unknown] (32:16)

Well.

[Unknown] (32:17)

Richard Hagin's mother did sell tickets down there for a long time, remember? And we used to rent those things and go to Buffalo and Riverton to the basketball games. And the charter went up, and they put it on a switch down there, and [....] to pull it up there, we'd load, go over to Riverton or Buffalo, and they'd wait over there.

[Unknown] (32:37)

Can you people remember Frances Dearwinster when she died? We ordered the extreme car [....] St. Louis, they hooked it on to another car and come into Chatham and picked up all the Chatham people wanting to go to [....] and took them on in the train.

[Unknown] (32:53)

Who was that? 

[Unknown] (32:54)

Hm?

[Unknown] (32:55)

Who was that? 

[Unknown] (32:56)

Frances Dearwinster.

[Interviewer] (32:59)

I never heard that name before.

[Unknown (33:02)

You mean to tell me you had all this and you never heard that? 

[Interviewer] (33:06)

No.

[Unknown] (33:07)

I never either. 

[Unknown] (33:07)

That was long before her time.

[Interviewer] (33:10)

Well, I never heard the name.

[Unknown] (33:15)

He was an engineer on it [unintelligible]

[Interviewer] (33:19)

Her father? 

[Unknown] (33:21)

Terrible.

[Unknown] (33:21)

No.

[Unknown] (33:22)

[unintelligible] 

[Unknown] (33:23)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (33:25)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I remember him being down on the CNA for so many years, but I'd forgotten.

[Unknown] (33:42)

What was that name? What’d you say that name was again?

[Unknown] (33:48)

Dearwinster.

[Unknown] (33:49)

No, who was the one that runs the CNA depot?

[Unknown] (33:53)

Oh, he's an engineer. Dearwinster.

[Unknown] (33:56)

Yeah, but who runs the station down here?

[Unknown] (33:59)

Oh, I don't know. 

[George Roberts] (34:01)

Oh, [...]?

[Unknown] (34:03)

No, it was down there at the CNA depot for so many years.

[Interviewer] (34:09)

Yeah, that's who I'm thinking of.

[Unknown] (34:11)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (34:12)

All right.

[Unknown] (34:13)

Come on, Opal.

[Unknown] (34:16)

Is that [unintelligible]

[Unknown] (34:19)

No, you're thinking of Woodrow Wilson. [unintelligible]

[Unknown] (34:23)

Take it easy, people.

[Unknown] (24:25)

[...] grandfather [...]

[Unknown] (34:28)

I never claimed him for a grandfather, but he was married to my grandmother. And I did see a picture of him the other day, which was the first time I'd ever seen a picture of him. 

[Interviewer] (34:39)

I'd like to have a picture of him.

[Unknown] (34:42)

He had on a dapper-looking suit and a little mustache and a straw hat sitting on top of his head, and he was very slender-looking.

[George Roberts] (34:51)

He was, tall and thin, I remember him well.

[Unknown] (34:53)

I can't even tell you where I saw the picture. Probably at my sister's, but I was absolutely shocked when I saw it because my grandmother was a little short, really fat woman, and I thought, God, how could they ever go together, the two of them [...]. You know, all my life I've heard, “Oh, Woodrow Wilson.” All the mean things he did and everything. My father never liked him, and of course my father was grown up, I guess, by that time, pretty much so anyhow. My father never talked about his people very much, and my mother was Eva McCauley. Of course, my grandfather died in, like, ‘35, I think, so I don't remember too much of my grandfather, but I loved him. What I knew, what I remember of him, I loved him, but didn't know much about him. But my father's people, we have back about six or seven generations on them.

[Unknown] (35:57)

Where did he come from, do you know? Your father?

[Unknown] (35:59)

My father? Well, they came up here from Missouri, I think, but they came from England generations back. In some way, the ship collided with another one or burned or something, and my cousin did all this genealogy for about 40 years, he worked on it. But way back in the Civil War, one of the men was a colonel, general or something, some big officer, but he got a leg shot off in the war, and he became the cook of the camp, and he had a stroke and fell in the fire and died. But coming over on the boat, the boat collided with something or burned or whatever. But anyhow, the father threw a mattress overboard and threw his wife and child over, and the little girl lived, but the wife died. That's about all that I have on my father, on my father's side of the family.

[Unknown] (37:05)

What was some of your other sisters' names?

[Unknown] (37:07)

Christina, she's still living, Mabel, Vicey, and—

[Unknown] (37:12)

Your mother.

[Unknown] (37:13)

Mother, and then there was, as they called him, Tit McCauley and Bud McCauley, all of them. They're all gone, but my Aunt Christina. And if I had time tonight, I would have brought her, and she's visiting in Springfield.

[Unknown] (37:28)

I wouldn't have had no room to talk if nobody else was talking.

[Unknown] (37:31)

That's all right, she knew—you know, I tried asking her questions that you asked the last time, and I couldn't remember what all of them were. I said, I knew you wanted to know something about something that had burned, and there was two or three things, you know, that you asked questions, didn't anybody know about, and I couldn't think what they were. And she started telling me stuff, and I said, Aunt Chris, don't tell me because I won't even remember it until I even get home to write it down. 

[Interviewer] (37:58)

Well, you should get a tape recorder. 

[Unknown] (38:00)

Well, I thought tonight on the way out here, I'm sure she has one, and I thought I’ll just have her put on it everything she can remember about that.

[Interviewer] (38:09)

I wish you would.

[Unknown] (38:13)

I just remember things that they told me, you know. I was born here, but I was born in a section house, but I don't remember. I moved to Springfield when I was four, but my grandmother on my father's side lived here, yet, when I was a teenager. Of course, my grandma, she didn't live too long either. Her mother—mother—her father died, like I said, I think it was 1935 when he passed away. I'm not sure, but about that time. I was just a kid, I know.

[Interviewer] (38:52)

What do you remember about going to school?

[Unknown] (39:00)

He told me he wasn't going to ask for a grade. 

[Unknown] (39:03)

I don't think he remembers straight-A students. [laughter]

[Unknown] (39:09)

[unintelligible]

[George Roberts] (39:10)

I remember—I can't think what grade I was in, but it seemed like it was probably the sixth—when a tornado come across this town, took the bell tower off that Cowell building and dropped all the bricks down to the geography room.

[Interviewer] (39:29)

Oh, it came through the skylight, didn't it?

[George Roberts] (39:32)

Yeah, it come across this town just about treetop high and took that off and jumped across Springfield and wiped out a little town of Cornland up toward Clinton.

[Interviewer] (39:45)

I remember the bricks coming through the skylight.

[George Roberts] (39:49)

And it just so would be there wasn't no class in there at that time. It was not the bell tower, it was a chimney that it took off, I was mistaken about the bell tower, it was a chimney that it took off.

[Unknown] (40:05)

What year would that have been? 

[George Roberts] (40:11)

It’d have been the thirties.

[Interviewer] (40:14)

Oh, I was in high school, I know that. 

[George Roberts] (40:19)

No, I don't think you'd have been in high school. 

[Interviewer] (40:24)

Well, the one I remember, I was. Because I remember Mr. Farley and Lillian Ty, and we went down the fire escape out of the...

[George Roberts] (40:38)

Oh, was there—was there a high school in the Caldwell building when I was there? 

[Unknown] (40:44)

Three years. 

[Unknown] (40:46)

[...] all three of them.

[George Roberts] (40:49)

I must have been scared to death of them high school kids. I don't remember that. Yeah, that's right, it was only a three-year school because kids went to Auburn or they went to Springfield to finish up, didn't they?

[Unknown] (41:00)

We went [...] Ball Township came out of the school. Herschel [......] and Jim Locke, they went over to Ball Township. We were the first ones here that went over there.

[Interviewer] (41:10)

You were the first ones that went over there?

[Unknown] (41:12)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (41:13)

And how did you go?

[Unknown] (41:16)

We went by buggy, and then we walked part of the time, [....] and then Herschel, Jim bought an old car, and I went on him part of the time, part of the way, because he wouldn't run the whole time over there, and we'd walk the rest. They didn't start up and get back over. It was only about four miles, five miles, something like that. Just, you know, land you there, you know, on the other side of the [....]. 

[George Roberts] (41:42)

Now, you was probably in the first graduating class down here at the new high school. 

[Unknown] (41:47)

Right, 1938. I remember the open house they had, the Home Ec. class served cookies. They had them dishes all day long.

[George Roberts] (42:03)

All right, now do you remember when they had the Chautauquas down here at the stockyard, where the stockyard was?

[Unknown] (42:15)

No, the ones I ever remember, just right across the street here.

[George Roberts] (42:18)

No, down there at the stockyard. There was a big stockyard where the lumberyard is now. I remember going to some open tent field there one time, some Chautauqua [...].

[Unknown] (42:43)

You what?

[Unknown] (42:44)

I can remember—

[George Roberts] (42:35)

Yeah, they had one in the park, but this building was built then because they used part of this building. That was a circus [....].

[Unknown] (42:44)

Well, we had—those were there a long time before this building was ever built.

[George Roberts] (42:48)

Oh, yes, long before this building was ever built. 

[Unknown] (42:48)

Oh, yes long before that building—

[Unknown] (42:49)

Years and years—

[George Roberts] (42:49)

Oh, yeah, but I mean the one I remember, this building was built then. It was the last one, I think, a tent circus I ever seen.

[Unknown] (42:59)

We were just going to ask what it was. What is a Chautauqua?

[Unknown] (43:07)

What is a Chautauqua? 

[George Roberts] (43:08)

It's a play that is staged in a tent.

[Unknown] (43:13)

And they sold candy in boxes. 

[Unknown] (43:16)

Popcorn.

[Unknown] (43:16)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (43:17)

I don't remember popcorn. Did they sell [....]? 

[Unknown] (43:20)

No.

[George Roberts] (43:21)

Well, I remember seeing Uncle Tom's Cabin in a Chautauqua that was this side of Gus Rice Furniture Store, which would be directly east of the Fox Theater in an open field. Now, when I got out of the military end of World War II, there wasn't a building, I don't think, built south of Gus Rice Store. Where Venture was, yeah, Venture, where Wilco was built, there was a big house there and a farm in there, and there was nothing built south of there.

[Interviewer] (43:59)

No, Gus Rice was the farthest thing south.

[George Roberts] (44:03)

When you'd come to the curb to come to Chatham, that Moonlight Gardens that was there was a skating rink, was a dance hall. 

[Unknown] (44:11)

Call it a skating rink. 

[George Roberts] (44:14)

As a matter of fact, that church that's, was a Gingham Garden right across from there.

[Unknown] (44:22)
Christian Church.

[George Roberts] (44:23)

Yeah, that was a Gingham Garden nightclub originally.

[Unknown] (44:26)

I worked there one night. I was sixteen years old, and they needed an extra waitress, and my aunt was working there. And so, she called my mother and told her to bring me up, and they would give me a job, and I was 16 years old, and never been in a tavern in my life, and I worked New Year's Eve.

[Unknown] (44:48)

Oh my. 

[Unknown] (44:50)

When all the drunks were there. Never will forget that. And there was one old man who sat at the same table all evening, and when he got ready to leave, he gave me a $20 bill, and I never will forget because in those days, $20 would buy a lot. I bought my mother a new bedspread for her bedroom, and I don't know what all with that $20.

[Unknown] (45:12)

[....] we got married. [laughter]

[Unknown] (45:16)

[unintelligible]

[Unknown] (45:18)

But the funny part of it was that the girls had to turn in all the tips and equalize them up, and everybody, they put the tips in the pot, and everybody equalized them up. So, when I got this $20 bill, I told my aunt, she went over and told the boss, and he said, tell her to put it in her pocket [laughter] or put it in her stockings because we had to wear very long stockings. So, I tucked it down in my stocking, and I had that whole $20 to myself plus my share of the tips.

[Unknown] (45:47)

I didn't know I married a barmaid.

[Unknown] (45:53)

I was only there one night, and that was it. I never went back.

[Unknown (45:58)

[unintelligible] We got her for $7.

[Unknown] (46:01)

Well, it was a high-class place, you know. It wasn't a joint, as they say. It was a high-class place.

[Unknown] (46:08)

Do you remember when Mary Shields sang up there?

[Unknown] (46:10)

No.

[Unknown] (46:13)

Remember what? 

[Unknown ] (46:14)

When Mary Shields sang up there?

[Unknown (46:18)

Well, to me, it always seemed strange that a church bought that building when it had been a tavern, you know. 

[Unknown ] (46:24)

Well, look at the VFW. 

[Unknown ] (46:25)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (46:47)

Yeah, that was the Lutheran church. I used to go to the Lutheran church down there.

[Interviewer] (46:32)

Yeah, but you didn't make a tavern.

[Unknown] (46:35)

No, but [....] church.

[Unknown (46:38)

Yeah, it was a church.

[Unknown] (46:39)

You mean the Baptist Church?

[Unknown] (46:41)

Uh-huh.

[Unknown] (46:41)

Oh, it was facing this way. They had it sort of that way for their lodge, and [unintelligible].

[Unknown] (46:49)

Oh, wow.

[Unknown] (46:50)

I got to see a picture of that.

[Unknown] (46:53)

It's hanging over there on the wall.

[Unknown] (46:55)

Oh, it is. 

[Unknown] (46:55)

Well, good.

[Unknown] (46:56)

What, what, what, what? 

[Unknown] (47:00)

I had had a picture of the old Baptist Church, and Rosalind was wanting one, so I gave her a copy of it, and they have framed it, and it's over in the Masonic Temple now.

[Unknown] (47:09)

Oh.

[Unknown] (47:11)

I was baptized in that church. My sister and brother were both married in that church.

[Unknown] (47:17)

Well, I was going to be baptized there, but that thing, it fell through, you know, and they just had the board over the [...]. It fell through, but they hadn't used it for so long. And they kept telling me, you better fix that floor.

[Unknown] (47:29)

So you went to the Baptist the last year. I was baptized in it. It went [....].

[Unknown] (47:34)

Did it? Well, they took us up, I think the six or seven of us, the Central Baptist Church. And Glenn was the last one going, and it went down, he had his mouth open, you know. He came up, and he choked, said, “Jesus Christ!” Everybody thought he was getting religion. He told me, he said, “I almost choked him there.” He had his mouth open wide.

[Unknown] (47:56)

They took him to the Elliot Avenue when they were baptized there.

[Unknown] (48:04)

But Miss Alice, the three sisters, you know, right? She played the piano. They took everything off the piano when she started playing, because, you know, it rocked. We had flowers, you know, sitting up there, and they'd just fly, they'd fly all over the place. They left everything off, and she'd tell them to play.

[Unknown] (48:19)

I have a lamp that came out of their house. Dorothy and Mary Southwick had it, and they were going to give it to the good.

[Unknown] (48:27)

She owns—

[George Roberts] (48:27)

Is that who owned it? 

[Unknown] (48:28)

Mrs. White owned that, and over the corner, didn't she? Maybe she owned both of them.

[Unknown (48:32)

Hendricks-Southwick.

[Unknown] (48:33)

Did she own this one over here, too? 

[Unknown] (48:35)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (48:35)

Owned both of them.

[Unknow] (48:35)

Where Perky was?

[Unknown] (48:38)

And they tore part of that old hotel down—off, and moved it down there, down my street, and made the house where Dan Mudd's lived for so long.

[Unknown] (48:49)

Oh, that way. 

[George Roberts] (48:50)

Where who lived?

[Unknown] (48:52)

Dan Mudd.

[George Roberts] (48:53)

Oh, yeah? 

[Unknown] (48:55)

I remember that hotel, that hotel right down here, but that's the church. That sits right on the ground.

[Unknown] (49:02)

The Connors run that.

[Unknown] (49:03)

Yeah, uh-huh. And it—when you step up, you didn't have to step over that high to get in there. It was a long thing, and they had a lot of rooms in that thing.

[Unknown] (49:12)

Evans and Connors Hotel.

[Unknown] (49:13)

Uh-huh.

[Interviewer] (49:16)

Well, when you went to one of these hotels, what kind of service did you get?

[Unknown] (49:21)

Honey, I don't know, because I never would have [unintelligible] [laughter]

[Unknown] (49:24)

Same thing, I never inside of it. 

[George Roberts] (49:26)

No.

[Unknown] (49:27)

I didn't have a...—well, probably cost you 50 cents, but I'm just a kid [...].

[Unknown] (49:31)

I have no idea.

[George Roberts] (49:32)

It was more salesmen, probably the patronizing than anybody, but I didn't see they'd come in on the train, and then they'd have to leave the next day or the day after.

[Unknown] (49:42)

They had nothing else they were interested in.

[George Roberts] (49:44)

Every little town had a hotel. [.....] had a hotel.

[Unknown] (49:50)

Well, I never was in this one here, but Mrs. White, not even when Lorena and I would be running around, I never was in. I don't know. I have no idea.

[Interviewer] (50:06)

I just wondered if they had meals, you know. 

[Unknown] (50:11)

I imagine they did. I imagine they did.

[Unknown] (50:13)

I guess so, because—

[Unknown] (50:14)

Most little town hotels did.

[Unknown] (50:16)

I've heard [....] telling about what he was doing with business. He had the

[....] he came from Waverly, and they had a hotel over there, and he'd sell everything. Guy worked for him, but something else in Auburn did something in Auburn that worked for him. He had a hotel over there, and he never left.

[Unknown] (50:37)

Went to her house, and they’d change the sheets.

[Unknown] (50:39)

Would that be like a boarding house, or was that something else?

[Interviewer] (50:43)

Well, I don't know whether they're the same or not, but I remember boarding houses.

[Unknown] (50:49)

Usually the meals, I think, went with it.

[Interviewer] (50:50)

Yeah, it was by the week or something. 

[Unknown] (50:54)

But that was usually just like a [....] or something.

[George Roberts] (50:56)

Well, [...]  was a boarding house, and this was a regular hotel. As a matter of fact, it was two stories, wasn't it? The one that stood up there.

[Interviewer] (51:04)

Do you remember what happened when Perky was there? It was so full of chili cans.

[George Roberts] (51:11)

I don't know. I remember Perky living there prior to World War II. He lived down there. Well, next to where Della Gleason lived, Perky lived there prior to World War II. That old man used to write me a letter about every two weeks when I was overseas.

[Unknown] (51:34)

Remember that little bulldog he had?

[George Roberts] (51:36)

Yeah, that little Boston bull. You know, a lot of people don't realize it. He was a very accomplished musician. He could play a violin, a mandolin, a guitar, a banjo, because he taught me pretty well how to play a guitar at one time. See, his real name was Harry Angle.

[Interviewer] (51:58)

Yeah, we've got a good picture of him. 

[George Roberts] (52:00)

Yeah. But he also was an insurance agent because he carried my folks' household insurance for years and years. And he could also run a typewriter, which is very unusual for the people in them days.

[Unknown] (52:16)

You remember John Goode? His name was John Goode and Lewis Jaggers, he had two names.

[Unknown] (52:19)

Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown] (52:21)

He went for both of them, it made no difference.

[George Roberts] (52:23)

Yeah. Well, he was custodian of this building here for several years.

[Interviewer] (52:29)

What I remember about him is that he would always tell you the day he was going to die.

[George Roberts] (52:35)

Who's that? 

[Interviewer] (52:35)

John Goode. 

[George Roberts] (50:36)

Oh, well, he was sick all his life, probably from the time he was born.

[Interviewer] (52:40)

But that day would come and he didn't die. He finally died [unintelligible] or something.

[Unknown] (52:46)

Did he have to take another day's dinner?

[Interviewer] (52:48)

Yeah, he'd have another day. Yeah.

[George Roberts] (52:51)

Now, Perky Whitney, he was a very knowledgeable man. He served in World War I and I guess when he came out of the military at the end of the war, he just lived by himself. I mean, him and his dog.

[Interviewer] (53:09)

I never remember him working or doing a thing.

[Unknown] (53:11)

No, no.

[George Roberts] (53:12)

He owned a lot of property. He owned a lot of property in this town.

[Interviewer] (53:16)

Oh, he did?

[George Roberts] (53:17)

Oh, yeah. He owned that building right up there where the A1 Tavern is. And I think he owned that hotel building next to it at one time. He owned at least two or three houses along that street in between Jordan's and where the Presbyterian Church was. And I don't know how many more places, property, left that he owned. Now, if I'm not mistaken, Raymond Barnes' wife has some relationship with Perky Whitney.

[Interviewer] (53:54)

I don't know. I'd have to ask her about that.

[George Roberts] (53:57)

Wasn't there something? 

[Unknown] (53:59)

I didn't think it related to the same name. Whitney, they had Whitney. Virginia Whitney, that was the name.

[George Roberts] (54:05)

Oh, I know what it was. She was a relation to whoever took Bertie over one time. See, that—he was called Whitney. His real name was Harry Angle. That was his real name. Perky Whitney was not his real name.

[Interviewer] (54:24)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (54:25)

Well, there was some Whitneys that lived down just about where you did, just this side of the big house there. And they had something to do with that store also. And Perky—Perky Whitney, and they called him Perkey Whitney, and they called him whatever the other one they called him, but he was a relation to them, some way or other. And I can't think of that guy's name.

[Unknown] (54:48)

Where did they say they lived?

[Unknown] (54:50)

Well, they had a big house just east of you there, maybe a couple, three houses.

[Unknown] (54:55)

Oh, you're talking about Anne Reed?

[Unknown] (54:57)

No, I'm thinking of Whitney. It was a Whitney.

[Unknown] (55:01)

That’s West Allen House, I mean, where West Allen House is now. They called him Judge Whitney. You know, that old [...], I don't know how he got that name.

[Unknown] (55:14)

I think we're all mixed up in where we lived. I'm not even talking about my place down there.

[Unknown] (55:19)

No, no. I'm talking about over here on the main drag over here. From where you live now, just, you know.

[Interviewer] (55:26)

Oh, I remember that house. That's the, um...

[Unknown] (55:29)

That's the Caldwell Whitney House.

[Unknown] (55:31)

Well, that was where Betty Grillett lived.

[Unknown] (55:34)

Yeah. It's on the north side of the street.

[Unknown] (55:37)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (55:37)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (55:38)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown] (55:38)

[unintelligible]

[Unknown] (55:40)

[...] right down here, down this street here.

[Unknown] (55:43)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (55:44)

[unintelligible]

[Interviewer] (55:44)

Yeah. Yeah, I remember that. I never heard anything about a Judge Whitney.

[Unknown] (55:51)

Yeah, he's known, kind of a bald-headed guy, portly, far as a looking fellow. Somebody type the name Judge. I don't know whether he was sort of legal.

[Unknown] (56:01)

I thought he was a Justice of the Peace one time.

[Unknown] (56:03)

Yeah, I think that's where he got the Judge part from.

[George Roberts] (56:06)

Well, it seemed to me my mother told me one time that this Perky Whitney was taken in by these Whitneys and raised and that's how come he was called Whitney.

[Unknown] (56:17)

I think I have heard that story too, somebody—

[George Roberts] (56:20)

But his real name was Harry Angle because when I addressed the letter to him all the time overseas, I was addressing Harry Angle. That was his real name.

[Unknow] (56:25)

[...] great-grandfather was [...] go by the name of John Barley, and then there was three men who took the name [...] so [...]

[Unknown] (56:31)

I had always heard that he was a very well-educated individual. 

[George Roberts] (56:36)

What a very confident individual. 

[Unknown] (56:40)

And the funny part was when he married my grandmother, her name was—her last name was Hope.

[George Roberts] (56:45)

Well, he may have and I don't know but he had a violin and a guitar and a banjo and a mandolin and a guitar.

[Unknown] (56:53)

He said if you had one that needed repairs you could repair them. Now, I don't know whether it was just it seems to me that I've always heard It was very interesting to talk to him.

[George Roberts] (57:04)

Well, I'll tell you, Maine Allen took over his insurance business later on. Sometime, I think it was just after the war he went over to the Sailor's Home in Quincy.

[Interviewer] (57:26)

Yeah, Wes Allen had something to do with that.

[George Roberts] (57:30)

Well, Wes Allen got all the property there. That's where Wes Allen got that property.

[Interviewer] (57:35)

Okay.

[Unknown] (57:36)

Thirteen to fifteen kids in that family.

[George Roberts] (57:38)

When Wes Allen got to this town he didn't have any property. He opened up a little restaurant [...]

[Unknown] (57:47)

Herb and I went over and picked him up [....] and he drove in the back of the truck and we had all the furniture back there. He was drunk when he got over there. He drove all the way over here, he laid on that sun, you know. He came and he was just as drunk when he got here as he was when he got all over there.

[George Roberts] (58:05)

No, that's where Wes Allen got them buildings was off of Perky Wood. 

[Unknown] (58:11)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (58:12)

And that's where Wes Allen's house is right now. 

[George Roberts] (58:16)

That's right. He fed Perky Wood fried eggs sandwiches and [....]

[Unknown] (58:25)

That's the place [unintelligible]

[Unknown] (58:27)

Do you remember the Wright boys that lived down the street here?

[George Roberts] (58:29)

Yeah, I'll tell you their story. When I was a little bit of a kid I thought they was the ones that invented the airplane. [laughter]

[Unknown] (58:41)

Well, you know, I was carrying a paper and they didn't have money to pay for it, and I  let it go, let it go, you'll never get your money. But every time they got a job, got off the drunk and got a job, made money, that’s the first thing they did was pay me for the paper. 

[George Roberts] (58:54)

Logan Wright. 

[Unknown] (58:55)

Logan Wright, and [...] Charlie. Charlie was [...]  

[George Roberts] (58:58)

And the Pickles was—he had a son. 

[Unknown] (59:00)

No, he was a nephew, I think [....]

[George Roberts] (59:02)

A nephew? 

[Unknown] (59:03)

Yeah.

[George Roberts] (59:05)

They owned a big steam engine.

[Unknown] (59:07)

Pickles was Charlie Wright's son. 

[George Roberts] (59:10)

They had these giant steam engines and they was parked right well, I don't know who owned the house there now, Art Bond lived there for years and years on that corner. And they owned the whole block almost, and they had these—they done custom thrashing and they had these big steam engines and that's all they ever done. I can still see them engines chugging down the street where I live going down to Bearden's Farm when they would hook one up to a thrashing machine and throw a pile of straw 50 feet in the air.

[Unknown] (59:43)

When it wasn't in use it sat right down back down there behind the house too.

[George Roberts] (59:47)

Huh?

[Unknown] (59:47)

When it wasn't in use it sat just down there behind that house.

[George Roberts] (59:50)

Yeah. They had a sort of open-air storage and they had about two or three of them big steam engines and then the thrashers. Because their sister was married to the blacksmith John Taylor Lowell. 

[Unknown] (1:00:05)

Oh boy, I haven't heard that name in a long time.

[Unknown] (1:00:07)

Sure, uh-huh. Old John Taylor. 

[George Roberts] (1:00:10)

Well, you ought to know him. He had a blacksmith shop behind your house.

[Unknown] (1:00:13)

Yep.

[Unknown] (1:00:14)

And he had a house over there on this street over here too, he’d go down that way and build that little house there.

[Unknown] (1:00:20)

Yeah, I believe that. I can remember that. It sat up so high.

[Unknown] (1:00:24)

It was right across here on this corner from where there was the I.N.X. block where there was a young girl about eight years old and they used to go play with her all the time. [unintelligible]

[Interviewer] (1:00:40)

And who was his wife, she'd be about my age?

[Unknown] (1:00:43)

Who?

[Interviewer] (1:00:44)

John Taylor Lowell’s wife.

[George Roberts] (1:00:45)

She was a sister of them Wright brothers. 

[Unknown] (1:00:48)

Fanny Wright.

[George Roberts] (1:00:49)

Yeah, she was a sister of them Wright brothers. 

[Unknown] (1:00:51)

Fanny?

[Unknown] (1:00:52)

Fanny, yeah.

[George Roberts] (1:00:52)

They was Kentuckians. She could chew tobacco and spit with the best of us.

[Interviewer] (1:00:58)

And you was talking about Pickles, Pickles Wright was Charlie Wright's son.

[George Roberts] (1:01:03)

Pickles was Charlie Wright's son.

[Unknown] (1:01:06)

And he was married to Prudy Miller, John Miller, John Miller's daughter.

[George Roberts] (1:01:13)

The one they called Hoopy John? 

[Unknown] (1:01:16)

He ran a bailing pit. 

[George Roberts] (1:01:17)

Yeah, he ran a bailing pit. Yeah. I'll tell you what I remember about him, he broke his leg and he had a stiff knee. And he never rode in a truck with the door closed, he always had that leg out on the running board holding the door.

[Interviewer] (1:01:33)

Oh, and you know another thing he did?

[George Roberts] (1:01:35)

He'd get that knee inside the truck.

[Interviewer] (1:01:36)

Every time somebody got married he marked it on the calendar.

[George Roberts] (1:01:40)

Well, that wouldn't have been [laughter]

[Unknown] (1:01:42)

I just thought everybody did that. [laughter] [unintelligible] That’s funny.

[Unknown] (1:01:50)

That's not fair.

[George Robets] (1:01:51)

Now he was [unintelligible]

[Interviewer] (1:01:57)

Oh, didn't they tell some story about him and an election?

[Unknown] (1:02:05)

Somebody was talking here at one of these meetings about Hoopy John Miller. 

[Interviewer] (1:02:08)

Yeah. Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:02:12)

I don't remember what it was now.

[Unknown] (1:02:14)

Anyway, when the governor was out here he was on the front row and I don't remember quite what it was all about, but I remember that part of it.

[Unknown] (1:02:26)

[unintelligible] name of Perky [...] he was [...]

[Interviewer] (1:02:34)

He was adopted. 

[Unknown] (1:02:38)

Yeah [unintelligible]

[George Roberts] (1:02:41)

I don't know. He was—I thought he was old as Methuselah when I was a kid. But he lived just on the other side of the Catholic church when the Catholic church is where it is—where it used to be, you know

[Unknown] (1:02:56)

He was just—and we lived down there for a while now where Frank Gotti lived down there just you know, and about two o'clock every morning he'd go, “Oh, well. Oh, well.” We lived a block away and he couldn't find his key to get in. Pop had to get up and put on there about two o'clock in the morning to get his key and stick it in the door, he couldn't find it. Let him in.

[George Roberts] (1:03:18)

That man probably outlived every doctor that told him that whiskey was going to kill him. [laughter]

[Interviewer] (1:03:24)

He was preserved as preserved inside. 

[Unknown] (1:03:26)

That's right. 

[Unknown] (1:03:28)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (1:03:29)

He was. Aunt Lou Decker was his mother, but you know I don't know. Do you know what man went with Aunt Lou Decker?

[Unknown] (1:03:44)

I've heard several, but I'm not going to mention any names. [laughter] And I don't know whether any of them dried her up.

[Interviewer] (1:03:52)

But I never remember. And I never heard mother or grandma say anything.

[Unknown] (1:04:00)

I remember some people saying he came from New York City. I mean, he was a child.

[George Roberts] (1:04:07)

Who, Perky did? 

[Interviewer] (1:04:08)

No. Decker. 

[George Roberts] (1:04:11)

Or Percy Decker, I mean. 

[Unknown] (1:04:13)

Yeah, Percy Decker.

[Unknown] (1:04:18)

Well, Virginia Whitney must have used [.....] a lot, didn't she? 

[Unknown] (1:04:20)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:04:20)

One time they had him in the nursing home up there [...] They had him in the closet. There's no window in that thing. They just had him in the closet there.

[Unknown] (1:04:28)

No room for nothing, but just a—like a daybed.

[Unknown] (1:04:30)

Oh, he got out of there in a hurry.

[Unknown] (1:04:34)

No light, no air, no nothing.

[Unknown] (1:04:36)

He lost both legs.

[Unknown] (1:04:37)

I remember that.

[Unknown] (1:04:38)

They put the sewer in Chatham. He got drunk and he fell down in the sewer and laid all night. They had to take his legs.

[Unknown] (1:04:47)

Percy Decker? 

[Interviewer] (1:04:47)

I thought one of them was frozen.

[Unknown] (1:04:51)

It was. [...] I say—

[Unknown] (1:04:53)

That's why they had to take it off.

[Unknown] (1:04:54)

They had to take one off and then I don’t know what happened, took the other one on. He didn't have both—any legs left. 

[Unknown] (1:04:59)

No,

[Interviewer] (1:05:00)

I know.

[George Roberts] (1:05:00)

Oh, yeah. He got frozen to the ground a lot of times. He was frozen to the ground between the barber shop and the jail one time.

[Interviewer] (1:05:08)

Oh, and he crawled across the railroad crossings when a train was coming. He was a character. 

[George Roberts] (1:05:15)

He was.

[Interviewer] (1:05:15)

Till the day he died. 

[George Roberts] (1:05:16)

He was a character.

[Unknown] (1:05:18)

And I'm going to tell you, he lived out there around the shelter space where we lived out there and he was just as good as gold when I was a kid.

[Interviewer] (1:05:25)

Well, I think he was good to kids, yes.

[Unknown] (1:05:27)

[unintelligible] will grow up. 

[George Roberts] (1:05:28)

That's right.

[Unknown] (1:05:30)

And he never went away and got on a drunk, and when he came back he always brought his kids a nice gift.

[George Roberts] (1:05:35)

You know, that's the privilege that you have in this country is you can march to your own drummer and that's what he did. He lived the life the way he wanted to live.

[Unknown] (1:05:44)

And that's the way I remember him. I know how drunk he got and I know, but I can still remember them good things that he did as a kid.

[Unknown] (1:05:50)

Oh, yeah. 

[Interviewer] (1:05:51)

Well, he, when he was sober, he was a good guy.

[Unknown] (1:05:56)

Everybody liked him. 

[George Roberts] (1:05:57)

Oh, yes. He used to like—

[Unknown] (11:05:58)

They put up with all that drunkenness because they liked him. He was good. When he was sober you couldn't find a better fellow.

[Interviewer] (1:06:04)

He was his own worst enemy. Him and Jabber Gory both. 

[Unknown] (1:06:09)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:06:11)

I don't know whether anybody ever knew who his mother was or not.

[Interviewer] (1:06:16)

Well, he was adopted. That I know. 

[Unknown] (1:06:19)

Well, I wouldn't swear to it because I've heard too many tales.

[George Roberts] (1:06:33)

I don't know how old he was or if he died. I have no idea.

[Unknown] (1:06:37)

Is he buried down there? 

[Unknown] (1:06:39)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (1:06:39)

Well, look, his grave was opened before he ever died because when they took those legs off they had to be buried.

[Unknown] (1:06:50)

[...] have a friend—

[Unknown] (1:06:51)

Didn’t have to be buried.

[Unknown] (1:06:51)

—that, uh, lost a leg at one of the, how many years was [....]

[Unknown] (1:06:57)

Almost twenty years.

[Unknown] (1:06:58)

Almost twenty years. And he finally found his leg that was, uh—

[Unknown] (1:07:01)

Staab’s—

[Unknown] (1:07:02)

—Staab’s Funeral Home.

[Interviewer] (1:07:03)

It's in the morgue at Staab’s Funeral Home, has been all this time. 

[Unknown] (1:07:07)

But didn't he take it out and bury it early?

[Unknow] (1:07:09)

Yeah. He took it last year and buried it, had it buried.

[Unknown] (1:07:17)

They say, you know, that when you lose an arm or leg it itches or hurts, you know.

[Unknown] (1:07:22)

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Unknown] (1:07:22)

Yeah, the same with my brain [....] [laughter]

[Unknown] (1:07:25)

And you just scratched your hair up and lost all your hair. [laughter]

[Interviewer] (1:07:30)

Well, what do you remember about the town hall?

[George Roberts] (1:07:37)

Well, I remember the night it burnt. 

[Interviewer] (1:07:40)

Yes, I do too. 

[George Roberts] (1:07:42)

It was probably one of the coldest nights we ever had that winter.

[Unknown] (1:07:46)

Yes, away from O.T.ville. 

[George Roberts] (1:07:48)

Hard to believe they played basketball games in that. 

[Interviewer] (1:07:53)

Oh, they had plays and elections. 

[George Roberts] (1:07:55)

Well, it was the only building there was.

[Interviewer] (1:07:57)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:07:59)

[...] we’d sit down [unintelligible] up on the bench on the side when they started playing again [unintelligible]

[Interviewer] (1:08:08)

Now, did those benches, did they open?

[Unknown] (1:08:13)

No, no, they just, about that wide. 

[George Roberts] (1:08:15)

Up against the wall. 

[Unknown] (1:08:16)

Up against the wall on the south side and the north side. It was the whole length of it. And you could sit there and stand up and they were playing basketball. Now, they had a stage up there in the front, and you could get, they had two chairs up there and you could stand up there. But then, those things were, probably, oh, that wide. 

[George Roberts] (1:08:33)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:08:33)

Just wide enough for your feet.

[Unknown] (1:08:35)

You just sit on the very top of it.

[George Roberts] (1:08:36)

They heated up with a big old giant stove. 

[Unknown] (1:08:40)

And on the stage they had [....] there.

[Interviewer] (1:08:43)

What year did it burn? What year did the town hall burn?

[Unknown] (1:08:48)

1936.

[Interviewer] (1:08:49)

1936.

[George Roberts] (1:08:50)

When was it? 36? It was a cold, bitter night, I know, because every bit of water the put on there froze.

[Unknown] (1:09:00)

We used to [....], right, two of us used to go over there at night and then, you know, had the operator over here, you know, telephone operator, go over there and give her 15 cents and she'd turn the lights on for you in the town hall. And we'd go there and play all evening long. Fifteen cents. It was never locked.

[Interviewer] (1:09:21)

It wasn’t?

[Unknown] (1:09:22)

On the lower floor was unlocked. The upper floor was locked.

[Interviewer] (1:09:25)

Yeah. Well, that was the township office and the Masons was up there weren't they?

[Unknown] (1:09:33)

[....] at one time.

[Unknown] (1:09:35)

Masons, sorry, on the upper floor.

[Unknown] (1:09:38)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:09:39) 

And the stairs on that sidewalk on the south side of it [...] about that far end was that when the stairway go up there right over the side—right over the stage down below.

[Interviewer] (1:09:52)

I remember the stage but don't remember that. What can you think of some more stories? 

[Unknown] (1:10:05)

Well, not to tell here.

[Interviewer] (1:10:08)

Yes. Well, you ought to tell us some good stories. We've got some good ones on here.

[George Robets] (1:10:13)

Yeah, I can tell you some that burn every quarter of my life. [laughter]

[Interviewer] (1:10:17)

Well, I think Harold almost did that first time.

[Unknown] (1:10:19)

Yeah. You know [...]

[Unknown] (1:10:20)

[....] water smoking didn't it? 

[Unknown] (1:10:22)

Yeah, I didn't know they had that thing on. [laughter] [unintelligible] run from that town hall over to the basement of that school to get after basketball game [....] sweat, and I'll tell you that.

[Interviewer] (1:10:33)

It’s a wonder you didn't have pneumonia.

[Unknown] (1:10:36)

No, didn't have anything.

[George Roberts] (1:10:39)

Well, I don't remember but this cannon barrel in the park was on wheels at one time.

[Unknown] (1:10:46)

Oh, I don’t remember that.

[George Roberts] (1:10:48)

And all I remember that cannon barrel was laying by the path as you cut through the park and laid by the path because every kid tested his strength to see if he could lift the butt end of it up, which nobody could. You could lift the front end of it up but you couldn't lift the heavy part. And, uh...

[Unknown] (1:11:11)

They would have been taken about during World War II.

[George Roberts] (1:11:15)

Why in the world [...]

[Unknown] (1:11:17) 

Right after it was put up there.

[George Roberts] (1:11:19)

Well, they’d mounted that during the war.

[Unknown] (1:11:22)

Yeah, because I have pictures of Harold's niece and nephew—

[George Roberts] (1:11:25)

But that laid here, that was here in this town. I don't know where it ever come from. As a matter of fact, the miners used to put black powder in it and a brick every once in a while and fire it off because [....] Sumpter's dad got mad and come up there and broke a rat tail file on the touch hole of it and broke it off so they couldn't fire it.

[Unknown] (1:11:50)

I think it was in the park when we came into Chatham.

[George Roberts] (1:11:53)

Was it on wheels then?

[Unknown] (1:11:56)

I don't remember that. I do—I'm sure it was in there when we came to Chatham in 1911.

[George Roberts] (1:12:03)

Because they used to fire it off, see, and in them days every miner brought his powder home and kept his powder at home except what he was going to use the next day at the mine. Because Bill—Bill Heffron—what was the old man Heffron's name? 

[Unknown] (1:12:29)

Red Heffron?

[Unknown] (1:12:30)

Oh, it was Bill too, wasn't it?

[George Roberts] (1:12:32)

Was it? Well, he had two twin boys they told me that blew their self up right down there with a keg of powder one time.

[Unknown] (1:12:41)

Well, I know something about it but we didn't live here at that time.

[George Roberts] (1:12:47)

But, uh...

[Unknown] (1:12:48)

They lived right down there at that time they called the patch right where the house was on that coal pit.

[George Roberts] (1:12:56)

I don't know, that may have been where they lived when them two kids set that keg of powder on fire.

[Unknown] (1:13:01)

There was a little house down in there, right in it. And there was some more mine houses. I think they were sold, and one of them, Tommy Shields bought it, and put the top on the house down there right across from where I lived at the time.

[George Roberts] (1:13:18)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:13:18)

It was Shields’ house. But that's where that all took place, That's what happened that day.

[George Roberts] (1:13:27)

When that mine in Chatham closed, was you living there then?

[Unknown] (1:13:31)

No.

[Unknown] (1:13:32)

Well, when I was just a kid, we weren’t allowed to go down there, but we went down there.

[Unknown] (1:13:38)

It's been closed I think several years before we came to Chatham. Because they were just mine shacks down there, and that's where the kids used to go to play and that's how the Hepburn boys got the powder that caused all the trouble. Do you remember young Bill Hepburn?

[George Roberts] (1:14:00)

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown] (1:14:01)

How he was scarred, how his arms and everything was scarred from that fire.

[George Roberts] (1:14:07)

No, I don't remember that.

[Unknown] (1:14:10)

I think Ethel was too. You remember Ethel [....] that married that [....] boy?

[George Roberts] (1:14:18)

No. She was his sister? No.

[Unknown] (1:14:20)

She was scarred, too, from it. 

[George Roberts] (1:14:24)

I remember like you say, Bill and... 

[Unknown] (1:14:30)

Ethel and Bill were the two—

[George Roberts] (1:14:32)

And Bob. Bob Hepburn.

[Unknown] (1:14:35)

And George [....] 

[George Roberts] (1:14:37)

And there was George, wasn't it? 

[Unknown] (1:14:38)

George Hepburn.

[Unknown] (1:14:39)

Yeah.

[George Roberts] (1:14:40)

There were several of them boys.

[Unknown] (1:14:45)

[...] Hepburn [....]

[Interviewer] (1:14:48)

There was a Hepburn that moved back to Chatham. Now, is that Ethel the older lady and then there was a daughter?

[Unknown] (1:15:01)

Beula. Beula?

[Unknown] (1:15:004)

Beula Hepburn? 

[Interviewer] (1:15:04)

No. Not Bula.

[Unknown] (1:15:07)

Oh, she was married to Jake Weasley.

[Interviewer] (1:15:09)

Mm-hm. Yeah. But they lived over here and the girl took in ironings. They lived in the old Bleefnik house there on the corner. Hm? Pearl Hepburn.

[Unknown] (1:15:24)

She was Pearl McIntyre.

[Interviewer] (1:15:28)

Yeah. And her mother was a Hepburn. She—

[Unknown] (1:15:35)

No, Pearl was married to a Hepburn.

[Interviewer] (1:15:38)

Pearl was married to which one of these Hepburns? To Red Hepburn. Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:15:46)

I don't think they ever lived together but they were married.

[George Roberts] (1:15:49)

Red, is that the one named Bob?

[Unknown] (1:15:55)

No, Red was Bill. I think they called them all Red, though.

[Unknown] (1:16:00)

I thought so too. 

[Unknown] (1:16:01)

They called him Red Bill. 

[George Roberts] (1:16:02)

Yeah, but... 

[Unknown] (1:16:04)

The older one was really actually called Red [unintelligible]

[Unknown] (1:16:10)

Pearl and Bill had a son. Do you remember that?

[Interviewer] (1:16:14)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:16:15)

They [....] and brought him back to Sturgeon.

[Interviewer (1:16:19)

Yeah. Okay. 

[Unknown] (1:16:23)

They [....]

[Unknown] (1:16:27)

They got together some way.

[Unknown] (1:16:30)

They got married right back to where my—my lots are.

[Interviewer] (1:16:35)

Oh. Yeah, I remember something about that now. About that boy. Remember old Harry Freeman?

[George Roberts] (1:16:50)

Oh yes. How could a person forget Harry?

[Unknown] (1:16:54)

I remember one time right over at the church there was a couple of them had an accident and Harry [...] and the guy [....] Harry said, “You can't hit me I've got glasses on!” Oh yeah, he pulled his glasses off. [laughter] Right over at the [....] boy's house there. He said, “You're not supposed to do that.”

[Interviewer] (1:17:19)

And what about E.J. Andrews?

[Unknown] (1:17:22)

Oh yeah. 

[George Roberts] (1:17:22)

Yeah.

[Unknown] (1:17:23)

I remember him. 

[Unknown] (1:17:25)

I remember Glenn and I—[....] Andrews and somebody else [unintelligible] go to lunch we go down there and he—he barged into the store, he was buying groceries. And he’d go and buy groceries in his store anymore. We didn't we didn't do anything.

[George Roberts] (1:17:46)

I've got a lot of books today that was bought. He sold a lot of books over there. He had a lot of used books, you know. Sold...

[Unknown] (1:17:54)

Where did he get them?

[George Roberts] (1:17:56)

Auctions and everything else. He had a lot of used furniture and everything else.

[Unknown] (1:18:02)

What kind of books? You mean hardback books?

[George Roberts] (1:18:05)

Yeah, he had all kinds of books.

[Interviewer] (1:18:07)

I can remember the antiques.

[George Roberts] (1:18:10)

Yeah, there was no such thing as a paperback in them days. But see, he had that whole building there because, oh what—what was his name that run the shoe shop? Bobby Cannon run the shoe shop and the [......].

[Unknown] (1:18:27)

He had that building and then he had that building, that whole building built there. 

[George Roberts] (1:18:33)

I don’t—

[Unknown] (1:18:34)

Right next to T.J. Gorey's grocery shop.

[George Roberts] (1:18:36)

No, I tell you, years ago, next to T.J. Gorey's grocery shop, was a bakery during the Depression. Some of the Bleefniks ran a bakery in there.

[Unknown] (1:18:52)

Ed Andrews was in a store on the south side of the street just over there about where her Mother's Place is. 

[George Roberts] (1:18:59)

Well, he was in where the Legion—

[Unknown] (1:19:03)

Yes, but—

[George Roberts] (1:19:33)

—is and he had the room next door.

[Unknown] (1:19:06)

This was before that. 

[George Roberts] (1:19:09)

That's where I remember him being. 

[Interviewer] (1:19:11)

Ed Andrews was?

[Unknown] (1:19:12)

Mm-hm.

[Unknown] (1:19:15)

Wasn't there a Urick that run the hardware store? 

[George Roberts] (1:19:17)

Oh yeah, Henry Urick. 

[Unknown] (1:19:19)

Yes, right.

[George Roberts] (1:19:19)

Yeah, right here on the corner.

[Unknown] (1:19:20)

Yeah.

[Interviewer] (1:19:22)

Was it a hardware store?

[George Roberts] (1:19:24)

No, he ran a grocery store. As a matter of fact he had hardware in there.